Yep, there are too D.I.+P.I. cars in European market, but not from European manufacturers. As an example, Subarus BRZ/Toyotas 86 are equipped with this Boxer 121cu.in. n/a engine injecting fuel via 4+4 injectors, i.e. 4 port located and 4 directly in comb. chamber high pressure ones.
Manuals over both variants implying that this way manufacturer (Subaru) benefits from both methods of fuel injection.
Suspiciously, in early models’ manuals there was a small report about reliability of this particular engine, due to port injectors’ cleaning ability, by spraying low pressure gas on intake side, whereas, at the same time -again suspiciously- this little paragraph “is gone” in later manuals…
Reading all your report and -now- your answer, I can see clearly why this happened, taking in mind too that most of the competitors use only D.I. systems….
Dirty minds in automotive industry! That happens when marketing overtakes engineering….Hummm!!!
Thank you for the great write up and all the continued work that you are putting into it. As a mechanical engineer with a history in engine building and racing, I appreciate what you’ve done.
Recently witnessed a KTM350 sxf engine failure (offroad motorcycle), where the cam welded itself to the journal. Spec oil is 10w50 or 10w60 Motorex Cross Power 4T, and the rider was running Rotella T6. There is debate about the cause of failure, but would love to see the Motorex oil in your ranking. Following what you’ve written, it seems the weight of the oil was not the culprit.
Thanks,
R
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Hi Robert,
The first thing I would suspect, is his extremely bad choice in motor oil. Rotella is a very poor performing Diesel oil that should NEVER have been used in that application. People who “think” they know what they are doing when they use the wrong oil in the wrong application are just asking for what they get.
If that rider had read my Blog, he would have known better than to have used a pitiful oil like that. It isn’t even a good performer among other Diesel oils. Some people are their own worst enemy. I have to wonder if he got the idea to use Diesel oil from reading Internet Forums.
Totally unqualified and outright incompetent people on Forums who “think” they know it all, often wrongly believe that Diesel oil would a great choice, with nothing to back up what they say. They simply have no idea what they are talking about.
Internet Forums are the worst possible place to find info on motor oil. Because 95% of what is said there, is completely WRONG. That is why I started my Engineering Test Data Blog in the first place. So that people have a place to go to see actual FACTS about motor oil.
My schedule is currently too busy to accept any oil for testing. You could check back with me in a few months, to see how things are going then.
I agree that using the Amsoil 5w30 signature series was my decision and not your recommendation. I followed your general guidelines of protecting the engine with superior automotive engine oils.
The bearings used in the KTM Duke 390 are ball bearings.
Take care
SS
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Hi again SS,
Plain bearing engines use high pressure oiling systems. These engines when well designed, do not require thick oil as long as they make sufficient HOT oil pressure with thinner oils.
Ball bearing engines use low pressure oiling systems. And should use the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer. Thin oils may drop the already low oil pressure to an unacceptably low level.
Water cooled engines are capable of controlling their oil temperatures under normal operating conditions, which can allow using thinner oils, if following the recommendations just above.
Air cooled engines cannot control their oil temperature reliably, and should use an oil with a HOT viscosity rating of 50 or 60.
All gasoline engines can use superior automotive gasoline engine oils, as long as an acceptable viscosity is used. And in the case of wet clutch motorcycles, as long as their clutches are in good condition.
Diesel engines should use Diesel oil of the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer.
Ford isn’t the inventor of combined port and direct injection. Toyota did this for the 2006 MY 3.5 litre six cylinders, and their 5.0 litre V-8s from MY 2008. It is now common in many larger Toyota engines for two reasons – no coking on the intake valves from EGR implementation by cam timing, and improved mid-range power. There is an SAE paper documenting this – Development of V-6 3.5-liter Engine Adopting New Direct Injection System, authors Takuya Ikoma, Shizuo Abe, Yukihiro Sonoda and Hisao Suzuki
Toyota Motor Corporation
Yuichi Suzuki
Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd.
Masatoshi Basaki
Nippon Soken Inc.
You can find this on the web in a couple of places for free download, but the upshot of all this is, the Lexus IS-250 had DI only engines, and suffers exactly the issues everyone else’s DI engines suffers. The 2GR-FSE and the 2UR-GSE engines have combined port and direct injection and do not have any of the issues.
And not to be confused – DI isn’t at fault here. Using variable cam timing to invoke EGR is what is at fault. The exhaust gases intentionally remaining in the cylinder get sent back up the intake port where the relatively cold intake valve and intake port get the carbon to stick and build up under light loads as is common while cruising on the highway. The OEMs no longer use all the plumbing and valves to invoke EGR to reduce NOx, they just do the same job with the variable cam timing now ubiquitous in modern engines because it can all be done with software and it reduces cost and parts count.
There are lots of good things GDI does, but blaming it for intake valve and port coking isn’t exactly fair. My very favorite thing about GDI is you’re able to run much higher compression because you have heat of vaporization working for you with DI where you don’t with PI. Every gearhead knows power comes from the highest compression you can safely run with the fuel you have available to you. GDI pushes the envelope on that really nicely.
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Hi again,
Some good info there for other readers who might be interested in more details. But, it could leave some a little confused. Most of my Blog readers are interested in a concise wind-up of various topics. If I go into too much in-depth background info, they will often glaze over and move on to something else.
So, I try to be mindful of that and keep my write-ups as simple and to the point as I can. That is what I did with the info I shared about Port Injection, Direct Injection, and combined Dual Injection.
I did NOT say that Ford invented Dual Injection. I only referenced them as one manufacturer using Dual Injection. The bottom line is that software alone, is not the magical cure-all for Direct Injection woes. That’s where you could be confusing some readers. For that reason, I almost did not post your message. It’s just not that simple. If it was that simple, manufacturers could have saved the cost and complexity of Dual Injection, and simply reprogrammed their software. But, the fact is, it requires Port Injection to keep intake valves clean. Thus, we now see the FAR BETTER Dual Injection taking center stage, so to speak.
At the end of the day, “Direct Injection only” engines are not well developed OVERALL, and cause major problems for their owners. So, “Direct Injection only” engine’s should be avoided. Dual Injection engines are the only way to go. So, that is what I shared with my readers.
Have you ever tested “MotorKote” anti-friction additive? The link I included is a real world non-biased test that makes the product look quite good.
I’d like a comment if you can provide one and ask if I send a bottle of MotorKote to you will you be willing to test it combined with an oil sample. I have no affiliation with the product and don’t usually use oil additives.
Regards,
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I no longer waste my time testing any aftermarket additives. Because they upset a motor oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, making it WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for an oil’s wear protection capability. A highly ranked, high performing motor oil, does NOT need any help.
I don’t post other links here, because I don’t want links going to products that should not be used. I try to provide only GOOD information for my Blog readers.
“I don’t post other links here, because I don’t want links going to products that should not be used. I try to provide only GOOD information for my Blog readers.”
I understand. It’s just that you did post tests on a couple of other additives. I haven’t used an additive in decades.
Peter
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Yes, I have posted tests on a few aftermarket additives, several years ago. But, once it became clear that some, such as zinc additives, completely ruin a motor oil, and that any benefit others MAY provide, can vary greatly, depending on which oil they are added to, and that they almost always negatively impact the factory’s carefully balanced additive package, I stopped wasting my time with them.
And just because they are on my Ranking List, people tend to think I am recommending them, which I DO NOT. So, I have made a real effort to make it clear that aftermarket additives should NEVER be used. And that the ones that are on my Ranking List, are only there because of requests I have gotten in the past, and that they are there for informational purposes ONLY. If I simply removed them now, it would mess up the Ranking List numbers, and cause too much confusion.
Bottom Line: Select a highly ranked, high performance oil in the first place, and it won’t need any help.
Hi, just curious, if you’ve had a chance to test the Amazon Basics oil?
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Hi Amy,
No, I haven’t. Every oil I have tested, is on my Wear Protection Ranking List. That is the primary reason for my Blog. I’m curious why anyone would think I have Test Data on an oil, and then not post it.
The only thing on here that doesn’t appear to have empirical scientific backing is your “Recommended Oil Change Interval” section. I would love to see a scientific analysis of say Mobil 1 0W40 FS Euro Formula over a 10k mile use with a little beating on it.
That brand/viscosity is OEM fill for Porsche vehicle with a recommended oil change interval of 10K miles. I would love to see how it stacks up at new vs 5K miles vs 10K miles from use in a typical Porsche Flat 6.
If you need donor oil, I have a 2014 Boxster S that I daily drive and take to the track half-dozen times a year.
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Hi Wade,
If after reading my Section on “Recommended Oil Change Interval”, you are still not convinced of the importance of reasonable oil change intervals, then I can’t help you.
After reading all that, why on earth would you ever even consider extended oil change intervals? I’d like to see your empirical scientific data “proving” that extended oil change intervals are somehow beneficial.
Auto Makers went to extended oil change intervals for Marketing reasons, NOT for Engineering reasons. Because extended oil change intervals make their vehicles’ cost of ownership numbers look better, that’s it. Extended oil change intervals do NOT help your engine at all.
In case you weren’t aware of it, 5,000 mile oil change intervals used to be the normal called for oil change interval, and all of a sudden, it was changed to far longer, even though engines did not change and motor oil did not change. That is when Marketing got involved.
And expensive synthetic oil makers claim their oil can use extended oil change intervals, only as a Marketing scam to convince potential buyers that, that will justify their high price. Buyer beware!
Using extended oil change intervals is much like using the same dirty, contaminated, disgusting bath water over, and over, and over again, for say a year, that also contains higher levels of abrasives, and depleted levels of needed components. I suppose you could technically do that, but why would anyone with any sense at all, want to do that?
If you still feel compelled to use extended oil change intervals, then knock yourself out, because you clearly don’t care about doing what’s best for your engine.
The whole point of my Blog is to provide readers with motor oil facts, and also with recommendations that are in the best interest of them and their vehicles, so that they are informed as to how to do the right thing.
But, if you choose to ignore all that and do the wrong thing, that is up to you.
You missed my point. I’m an engineer myself. I’ve always done 5K mile changes with conventional oil, and I personally struggle with this 10K interval with synthetic, but I have no data on my side. Can you provide any scientific data to help sway me?
Your blog does a great job of presenting a wealth of well-compiled empirical scientific evidence for your wear ratings for new oil, but in this area you provide only anecdotal evidence. I’m not suggesting you are wrong in your recommendation, I’m suggesting you haven’t presented any scientific data to back it up.
Why is 5000 OK on conventional, but not 10000 on full synthetic. Why is 3000 too frequent? At what point does oil use really affect the lubrication performance? What does the data point to?
For that matter, a number of scientific studies actually indicate that fresh oil has considerably worse wear characteristics than used oil:
As far as your anecdotal evidence, I don’t think cost of ownership is a concern for BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Bentley, Aston Martin owners. All these manufacturers recommend 1-yr, 10K mile oil changes with full synthetic oil. Jaguar recommends a 1-yr, 16K mile interval. Why?
As far as the oil manufacturers go, don’t they actually make more money selling you conventional oil at $17/gal than they make selling you synthetic oil at $26/gal that you change half as often. (I’m not sure of the profit margins on one vs. the other, but the net cost is higher to the consumer to use conventional oil).
So, aside from the anecdotal evidence for your Recommended Change Interval, do you have any scientific evidence you can provide?
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WOW, you sure have a tough time being able to grasp the information here, for someone who claims to be an Engineer. And it doesn’t matter if you don’t think Manufacturers care about the cost of ownership numbers, because they do. It’s not about the absolute cost per se. It’s about how competing products compare to each other. Because auto buyers are very fickle, and Manufacturers are well aware of that, even if you are not. Engineering did NOT drive the ridiculously long called-for oil change intervals we see in newer vehicles today. Marketing drove it.
My previous response to you, and my Tech Article on Recommended Oil Change Interval, provide nearly all the information I have on this topic. You don’t need to keep asking the same question over and over. It will not change my answer, other than the addition of the following.
I only post NEW motor oil test data, so that we have a standard baseline for comparison of all oils tested. However, I have tested a number of used oils also, that are not included on my Wear Protection Ranking List. And those used oil tests provided mixed results. Some oils tested about the same as when new. Some oils tested as much as 10% better than when new. And some oils totally failed my normal motor oil torture testing, and completely seized. That is scientific test data on used oil for you. Make of that what you will. But, the fact is, using reasonable oil change intervals, will keep you out of trouble, which is why I recommend the interval that I do.
And by the way, there is no such thing as changing oil too often. That does NOT hurt anything at all. But, it can be wasteful of money and resources.
The type or cost of the oil being used, conventional or synthetic, has no bearing on motor oil contamination, additive depletion, abrasive build-up, fuel induced dilution, etc, that takes place as miles accumulate on the oil. Therefore, I recommend the same ideal oil change interval previously discussed, for either type of oil.
But, all you want to do is argue. So, now you are wasting my time, and other Blog readers’ time. And I don’t have time for anymore of your nonsense. As I said before, if the information I have provided is not good enough for you, do whatever you want. You can make use of my Blog’s information, or you can ignore it. Either way, it makes no difference to me.
Hi 540 RAT – Thanks for your exhaustive approach to motor oil for our benefit!! – now bookmarked!
A bunch of us on a FIAT 124 (’66 – ‘85.5) fb site love the never ending debate of, “what motor oil do you use?”. One of the members just shared your Blog and I ate it up!. I realize from your thorough descriptions of flow and volumes and temp, and that every car will be different to some extent but there must/maybe be a range, of old OEM engines verses newly rebuilt high compression engines. As the shop manual for my ’79 calls for a 15w40 to 10w30 there is options open to us from FIAT.
My own ride that I’ve had now in the Toronto ON Canada area for 19 years happily runs with no blue smoke, I’ve been running a 10w30 Castrol GTX conventional in it for the past years, but also the 15w40 Shell Rotella T4. I’m guessing my oil pump is not running at original specs.,… So, I’m worried over suction / bubbles. You have me thinking of chasing down either Valvoline 10w40 Max Life high milage, Valvoline 10w30 VR1 conventional,.. or Castrol 5w30 GTX magnetic,.. … or Shell 5w40 Rotella T6,… or Amsoil 5w30 Signature Series,.. or Penzoil 5w30 high milage v,.. or Castrol 20w50 GTX conventional,.. or Castrol 5w20 conventional ,… or Valvoline 5w20 Premium conventional motor oils. My head is spinning a bit,.. as for my old ride with probably loose margins do I still want a thicker oil, or is my worry not well placed and I’d be better off with a thinner oil that will keep air bubbles lowest and temperatures lowest,.. I’m not driving in the desert, but stop and go traffic getting out on the weekends can be very hot, then I bomb it on the back roads – as fast as the law allows naturally.
I’m guessing your review of the Valvoline 10w40 Max Life high milage, will be the best of both worlds,..? Good on my old seals, with low enough cold number, okay hot number for ripping around cottage country and the fun back roads of Ontario? I think many of the oils you mentioned I would have a hard time sourcing, except for the ones I mentioned above. So, do you have any tips for us in the old FIAT 124 DOVC spiders clubs? I’m hoping your experience will guide me and maybe ‘us’ to enjoying our engines for years to come based on science and physics and not on a bottle because it’s green, or red or white,..
I probably have more typos here than you had editorial errors in your whole Blog! – You are an impressive writer. Thanks again for sharing your research!
Enjoy your day – Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Thanks for the kind words. I’m glad to hear that you appreciate my Blog.
I provide factual info, and leave it up to the vehicle owner to decide on which particular oil they want to use.
But, a few words of caution. Rotella is a poor performing Diesel oil and should not be among your choices, when there are many, many other far superior gasoline engine oils readily available.
And I have found over the past few years, that Castrol has greatly reduced the capability of their motor oils, apparently to cut costs and maximize profits. So, I no longer use, nor recommend their products.
As for viscosity in your application, if you avoid overly thick 50wt oils, you should not have a serious problem with air bubbles.
Someone that has not ran into this section would assume you are recommending Oil Extreme Concentrate. Does this hold true?
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Hi Jorge,
That has never been true. People should NOT assume anything. Because that can get them into trouble.
If people actually read my Blog, they would know full well, that Oil Extreme Conentrate helps poor performing oils, but hurts good performing oils.
There are a few aftermarket additives on my Ranking List for informational purposes only. But, I have NEVER recommended using them. And I stopped testing any more of them a few years ago. Because it became clear that they ruin an oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, and make the oil WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for the oil’s wear protection capability.
A good performing motor oil will not need any help.
Put Mobil 0W40 FS european formula in my 2015 Jeta SE and from my TONWON OBD II reader I noticed and average of 2 degrees cooler on all drive situations.
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Hi Nelson,
Mr. 540 Rat,
I have written to you 2 times before about oil consumption in my 1994 Dodge B250 Van with the 5.2 (318) engine. Based on the information available on your blog I returned to using conventional oil and consumption is now at an acceptable level.
During all this I also switched to 5W30 although my user manual specifies 10W30 and 5W30 is acceptable in very cold climates. I live in Texas and seldom see really cold weather, and it runs just fine on the 5W30.
Considering all this, are there applications where 10W30 is preferable to 5W30?
Thank you, Ken Davis
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Hi Ken,
No, 5W30 is always a better choice than 10W30. Here’s why. Both are rated as 30wt oils at normal operating temperature. So, they are equivalent where an engine spends 99% of its life. And 10W30 is rated as 10W oil when cold, where 5W30 is rated as a 5wt oil when cold.
That means that 5W30 will flow better during cold start-up and as the engine is warming up, which is ideal. So, if you use 5W30, there is absolutely no reason to ever consider 10W30 again.
In fact, there is no reason for 10W30 to even be on the market. It could be dropped from the market entirely, and that would be no loss at all.
I have a bottle of oil I’d like to send in that is not on your list. How do I send you a quart of oil? Send e mail to my username at google mail please and I will send the oil. It’s very popular among a certain enthusiast circle and I’d like to see how it stacks up.
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Hi Anthony,
I’m not accepting any oil for testing at this time, because my schedule is too busy.
And you have to tell me what the oil is, and what the viscosity is, to see if I’ll agree to test it, before sending it. You can’t just send me some mystery oil. Because properly testing an oil, is a time consuming effort. And I don’t waste my time testing certain brands or viscosities of oil.
I don’t send emails from this Blog. I only communicate with my readers from this Q&A Section. So, we can only discuss things here.
You can check back with me if you want, in a few months, to see if my schedule has opened up by then.
Hi 540 RAT,
I’d love to see you test Amsoil Signature Series 0w40 (not the diesel one, the one formulated to meet the Chrysler MS12633 spec for SRT engines).. and the Signature Series 5w50.. I’m extremely curious how they’d rank.
Thanks for all the great info!
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Hi there,
I don’t bother testing many thicker oils such as multi-viscosity 40wt or 50wt oils, because they are thicker than ideal. There is simply no good reason for factory automotive engines to call for oil that thick. See my Tech Article on Viscosity Selection, and you will see why.
5W30 is THE BEST OVERALL viscosity to use, in most automotive engines, including High Performance engines. I personally use 5W30 in my 600 HP engine and in my 800 HP engine.
And there is a number of very impressive High Performance 5W30 oils to choose from. See my Wear Protection Ranking List for which ones they are.
Hello, You have no idea how glad I am to have found this blog. I have been pulling my hair out trying to find the best oil to use on my vehicle. There are so many opinions and “experts” online without any testing results to back it up it becomes impossible to settle on an answer. Your website makes it very simple indeed so thank you for the info you provide.
I have a Porsche 2003 996 which apparently has some design flaws around the water cooling of the cylinder bores (insufficient cooling in some scenarios) which can lead to bore scoring. Hartech is an engine builder in the UK that have spent a lot of time looking into and testing solutions to these problems and one of their recommendations is to use Millers CFS 10w50 to provide extra protection. You have tested Millers 0W30 CFS which comes in at 33 on your list so potentially a great oil for me. However I can’t get it in my country (New Zealand). So I am looking for an alternative to this that is close to the test results of the Millers.
The Porsche factory recommended oils (Porsche A40 specification) are all 0W40 and 0W50 oils and 1 5W50 oil (Mobil1). Porsche themselves have a “Classic” oil they sell branded as Porsche Classic which I note is a 5W50 oil for water cooled engines such as mine. I suspect its mostly Mobil1 5w50 with some additional additives since they have a big partnership with Mobil. Presumably they are recommending 5W50 for higher mileage engines where the tolerances have reduced.
From your list, the Mobil 1 0W40 “FS” European Car Formula seems to be the most likely option for me to use. Except I am currently using the Mobil1 5W50 engine oil (ranked 116 on your list) which is Porsche approved and I am now wondering if I should stick with a 5W50 given that is what Porsche seem to be implying for higher mileage engines (mine has 100,000 miles).
I would appreciate your input on if you think I could safely take my oil back to a 0W40 or 5W40 oil given it has issues with clearing heat from around the bores under some scenarios or am I better to stick with a 5W50 oil given its age?
Many Thanks!
Darren
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Hi Darren,
I’m glad to hear that you find my Blog to be helpful. And thanks for the kind words, I appreciate that.
As you have discovered, Automotive Internet Forums are the WORST possible place to get motor oil info. Most people there think they are motor oil experts, even though they are completely unqualified, have no idea what they are talking about, and have no data to back-up anything they say. You did the right thing by ignoring them, and coming here.
50wt oil is insanely too thick for any water cooled automotive engine. European Auto makers don’t seem to understand motor oil. Mercedes in their M engines called for stupid thick 60wt oil, and actually CAUSED countless rod bearing failures. 5W30 was a far better choice. See my Tech Article on that.
40wt oil is also too thick to be ideal. See my Tech Article on Viscosity Selection. You don’t need super thick oil for your application. You need a High Performance oil that can withstand high temperature before reaching thermal breakdown.
5W30 is an ideal oil viscosity overall, for most automotive engines, including High Performance engines. I personally use 5W30 in my 600 HP engine and in my 800 HP engine.
Engines that call for thicker oil, can also use 5W30 as long as they can still produce acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with the thinner 5W30. Countless people have made the switch, and their engines are far better off with it.
I try not to promote any particular motor oil. Because I have no stake in what oil anyone uses. So, I do not tell people which particular oil to use, I leave that up to them to decide, after they have read my Blog.
But, I will say, that if I were in your particular situation, I would probably use the amazing High Performance 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil, and see if the “HOT” oil pressure is still acceptable.
Thinner oil may cause increased oil consumption in older engines. So, you would also to want to keep track of that possibility.
Funnily enough, just yesterday after I sent this message I had another look on your list and I found a local distributor of Amsoil in this country and got in contact. I have more or less firmed up a decision to go with Amsoil based on your information and other info I found. I was going to go with their 5W50 Signature Series, but will now order 5W30 instead and monitor oil pressure which by all accounts should be no problem as at the moment, I feel its on the high side with just under 2 bar on warm idle. There are plenty of experts online arguing about what the oil pressure should be as well! Factory simply says at 5000rpm it should be around 3.5 bar (50psi) which lines up with what I read on your blog about RPM and oil pressure.
Actually, I just looked in the service manual and 5W30 can be used and when I look at its service history, 5W30 has in fact been used in the past on this vehicle for at least a couple of services and years (Castrol Longlife III). Its only the current Porsche A40 standard which seems to have minimum 0/5W40. Porsche manual says you can only use 0W30 if it has the Porsche A40 standard approval. But I’m confident Amsoil is better than most if not all Porsche A40 approved oils anyhow.
Interestingly, on these cars some folks install a deeper oil pan to add more oil volume and with better baffle design on these vehicles because there are concerns that when on track with sticky track tires, oil starvation at the oil pickup becomes an issue. Some think its because oil is not flowing back quick enough so they add more oil volume to the system via the deeper aftermarket pan. Presumably 0W30 oil could flow back quicker than 5W50 would as there is a difference in the warm viscosity of 5W30 versus 5W50. Not really a concern for me as I don’t yet go on track and would only use road tires if I did anyhow. But interesting none the less.
Many thanks again. I feel confident we have found a solution to my dilemma and I can now sleep easy.
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Hi again Darren,
I have a 57 t-bird 312 engine with dual 4 barrel carbs. Using your oil document I plan to use Valvoline 5W20 max-life high mileage oil. Would you recommend a different oil for this car?
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Hi Phylls,
Yes, I would definitely recommend a different oil. It is a good thing you contacted me before using that oil. Your old Classic 312 T-Bird engine was never designed for oil that thin. So, it has no business using it. I don’t typically recommend what oil people should use. I let them read my Blog and decide for themselves, what oil to use. But, in your case I will make a rare exception, and suggest you consider using 10W40 Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle conventional motor oil. That would be an ideal choice for your engine.
Mr. 540 Rat,
Thank you for answering my question related to 5W30 and 10W30 motor oil. I was not surprised by your answer in that I have been reading and referring to your Motor Oil Engineering Test Data for a couple of years. My own experience with 5W30 verified your information. In my opinion the reason 10W30 is still quite prevalent in the market is most people have not seen your blog. Before I discovered your blog I would not have considered 5W30 in my van, it was just too “thin”.
Anyway, thank you again for your invaluable information and all the effort you have put into this endeavor. Priceless.
Ken Davis
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Hi again Ken,
Thanks for the kind words, and for being one of my Blog readers for the past couple of years. I appreciate that.
Hi Rat,
I see some full synthetic automobile oil I have not heard of before has hit the market, at least at Walmart. Maxx Oils, “Pro Max” in the typical weights and in Blue 5 quart jugs. Priced at 17.52 for 10W/30 right now. Is this an oil you have heard much about, and any plans to test it (in the 5W-30 weight of course)
Another note, I am getting my 440 Mopar block back from the machinist this week and putting together my 493 Stroker. Plan is to use 5W-30 Amsoil Signature series. Second choice is 5W-30 QS FS. I figure I cannot go wrong. It will have a solid roller cam, 14:1 compression,6 pack,look stock, and flow through factory HP manifolds. Going in a 1971 Barracuda. Should be fun!
By the way–when I go racing at BIR, and go to swap meets, I talk about you and your blogs to others. Talk about some “cement heads” Some guys worship the lower rated motor oils like they are a god. All I tell them is to at least give your site a read, then they can go and complain to their other sites!
Keep it up!
Jeff -440guy
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Hi again Jeff,
No, I am not familiar with Maxx Oils. So, I have no plans at this time, to test them. There seems to be a never-ending variety motor oils on the market.
Thanks for sharing info about my Blog with others. And yes, it amazing just how many people there are out there, who are completely clueless about motor oil.
On a classic 1974 Corvette, could I use 5w30 or should I stick to 10w30?
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Hi again Jorge,
5W30 is always a better choice than 10W30. Both are rated as 30wt when hot. And 5W30 flows better when cold, which is ideal for cold start-up, and during engine warm-up. If 10W30 was dropped off the market, it would be no loss at all. Because it serves no purpose.
Hi Rat,
been doing some round track roller engines and always use rev kits. never lost a roller lifter.(yet) my thinking is it helps with lifters slaming and banging.
what are your thoughts on this.
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Hi Jonas,
You apparently are not running a traditional Big Block Chevy engine, because it is very difficult to fit a good rev kit on those engines, because of their canted valve setup. And those BBC engines are the most vulnerable to premature “solid” roller lifter failure, due to pounding and bouncing within their valve lash.
For engines that are suitable for a rev kit, yes that may help extend solid roller lifter life somewhat. But, even with a rev kit, solid roller lifter setups still have valve lash for the valve train above the lifters, to pound and bounce around in, which still effects the lifters. So, even a rev kit is not a cure-all. And rev kit engines will still suffer solid roller lifter failure sooner than most would like.
Hi,
I love the Blog, I keep up with it and check it every few months.
I have been a member of a few car groups on FB and have shared the link to the blog so others can be helped and informed.
If you would kindly review the newer bottles of Supertech synthetic oils (in blue bottles) and the QS ultimate durability in 10w-30.
Me and every one on my groups realize it takes time, money and effort to do what you do and we appreciate it all! Thank you so much.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I’m glad to hear that you and others enjoy my Blog. And thanks for sharing it with others as well.
I tested Supertech synthetic and conventional oils fairly recently. So, there is no real reason to test them again at this time.
I usually try to only test the 5W30 versions of most motor oils, when the 5W30 viscosity is available, because that viscosity is the best all around viscosity, for the largest number of engines.
It just isn’t possible to test every single viscosity of every single motor oil on the market. Because as you said, it takes a lot of time, effort and money to perform so many Engineering tests.
I have spent an enormous amount of my own money and time, on equipment, motor oil and testing. I don’t charge any money for people to read my Blog, and I don’t charge any money to test oil for my readers. So, I have never made even one penny from this Blog.
But, I now usually require that people send me the oil they request to have tested, if I agree to test it. I only test oil that makes sense to test. So, there are some brands and viscosities that I don’t waste my time testing.
Professionally, I am a Mechanical Design Engineer, working for a major Corporation. Therefore, testing the wear characteristics between mechanical components under load, is a perfect fit for my field of expertise.
But, because I work a full time job, I created and maintain this Blog in my spare time, when I get a chance. Therefore, my time available for motor oil testing is rather limited.
Regarding your QSUD request, as I mentioned above, I don’t test other viscosities, such as 10W30 in this case, when 5W30 is available. Because 5W30 is ALWAYS the better choice. Here’s why: Both of those oils are rated as 30wt oils when at HOT operating temperature, where oils spend 99% of their life. And 5W30 is rated as a 5wt when cold, where 10W30 is rated as a 10wt when cold. That means 5W30 flows better during cold engine start-up, and during engine warm-up, which is ideal, and highly desirable.
Bottom Line: There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to ever use 10W30, if the FAR better 5W30 is available. You might want to share this information with all of your groups. Because many people don’t understand this, and go the wrong direction.
It is very unfortunate that so many people read wrong information about motor oil, all over the Internet, and go the wrong direction.
The whole point of my Blog, is to provide FACTS about motor oil, that cannot be found anywhere else. That way, people can make intelligent decisions about the motor oil they choose.
I really appreciate all the testing that you do to help consumers make more logical motor oil choices. I too am a big fan of QSUD, as it is a great oil and extremely economical as well. I would be interested in seeing your test results on QSUD 0w-20 in the newer Dexos 1 gen 2 spec.
I would like to send some in for testing at your earliest convenience. I’ll actually send you any oil that you’d like to test just to see the data base grow and give people more informed choices.
Keep up the good work,
LV Thompson
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Hi LV, it’s good to hear from you. And thanks for the kind words.
I have no plans to retest motor oils just for the newer dexos 1 gen 2 spec. That is not enough of a formula update, if an oil was even updated at all, to justify retesting numerous dozens of oils. In fact, that updated spec does not even mean oils were necessarily reformulated at all. It just means that oils carrying that spec on their bottles, meet that spec. See my Tech Article on dexos 1 gen 2, for more info on that.
I really do appreciate your offer to send in oil for testing, but my schedule is currently too busy to accept any additional oil for testing. And I already have several oils in line for testing, when I can get to it. But, if you are still interested in a few months, you could check back with me then.
‘ll be sure to take a look at that tech article when I get a chance. I assumed there would be some changes in the Dexos 1 gen 2 add packages to combat LSPI. I have read that calcium levels have been reduced and Molybdenum levels increased in the bulk of the VOA’s in Dexos 1 gen 2 formulations.
I’m just hoping that the new QSUD 0w-20 is every bit as impressive as the dexos 1 version.
When you get the chance i’d love to send you some Ravenol 0w-20 for some testing.
I can only imagine how hard it is being an engineer while maintaining this blog and simultaneously doing scientific research.
I’m a petroleum engineer myself so i’m very aware of your time restraints.
Once again thanks for your incredible effort, and let me know if I can be of assistance.
Hi again 540 RAT,
Yep, there are too D.I.+P.I. cars in European market, but not from European manufacturers. As an example, Subarus BRZ/Toyotas 86 are equipped with this Boxer 121cu.in. n/a engine injecting fuel via 4+4 injectors, i.e. 4 port located and 4 directly in comb. chamber high pressure ones.
Manuals over both variants implying that this way manufacturer (Subaru) benefits from both methods of fuel injection.
Suspiciously, in early models’ manuals there was a small report about reliability of this particular engine, due to port injectors’ cleaning ability, by spraying low pressure gas on intake side, whereas, at the same time -again suspiciously- this little paragraph “is gone” in later manuals…
Reading all your report and -now- your answer, I can see clearly why this happened, taking in mind too that most of the competitors use only D.I. systems….
Dirty minds in automotive industry! That happens when marketing overtakes engineering….Hummm!!!
Thanks again.
Many thanks. I remember those exterior oil filter magnets from years ago. They really work. Will do.
Appreciate your suggestions and all your work. I am a facts driven kind of guy and so are you. Your data is priceless!
Lowell
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Hi again Lowell,
I’m glad I could help. Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate that.
Take care,
540 RAT
Thank you for the great write up and all the continued work that you are putting into it. As a mechanical engineer with a history in engine building and racing, I appreciate what you’ve done.
Recently witnessed a KTM350 sxf engine failure (offroad motorcycle), where the cam welded itself to the journal. Spec oil is 10w50 or 10w60 Motorex Cross Power 4T, and the rider was running Rotella T6. There is debate about the cause of failure, but would love to see the Motorex oil in your ranking. Following what you’ve written, it seems the weight of the oil was not the culprit.
Thanks,
R
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Hi Robert,
The first thing I would suspect, is his extremely bad choice in motor oil. Rotella is a very poor performing Diesel oil that should NEVER have been used in that application. People who “think” they know what they are doing when they use the wrong oil in the wrong application are just asking for what they get.
If that rider had read my Blog, he would have known better than to have used a pitiful oil like that. It isn’t even a good performer among other Diesel oils. Some people are their own worst enemy. I have to wonder if he got the idea to use Diesel oil from reading Internet Forums.
Totally unqualified and outright incompetent people on Forums who “think” they know it all, often wrongly believe that Diesel oil would a great choice, with nothing to back up what they say. They simply have no idea what they are talking about.
Internet Forums are the worst possible place to find info on motor oil. Because 95% of what is said there, is completely WRONG. That is why I started my Engineering Test Data Blog in the first place. So that people have a place to go to see actual FACTS about motor oil.
My schedule is currently too busy to accept any oil for testing. You could check back with me in a few months, to see how things are going then.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat,
I agree that using the Amsoil 5w30 signature series was my decision and not your recommendation. I followed your general guidelines of protecting the engine with superior automotive engine oils.
The bearings used in the KTM Duke 390 are ball bearings.
Take care
SS
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Hi again SS,
Plain bearing engines use high pressure oiling systems. These engines when well designed, do not require thick oil as long as they make sufficient HOT oil pressure with thinner oils.
Ball bearing engines use low pressure oiling systems. And should use the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer. Thin oils may drop the already low oil pressure to an unacceptably low level.
Water cooled engines are capable of controlling their oil temperatures under normal operating conditions, which can allow using thinner oils, if following the recommendations just above.
Air cooled engines cannot control their oil temperature reliably, and should use an oil with a HOT viscosity rating of 50 or 60.
All gasoline engines can use superior automotive gasoline engine oils, as long as an acceptable viscosity is used. And in the case of wet clutch motorcycles, as long as their clutches are in good condition.
Diesel engines should use Diesel oil of the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat,
Thank you for the information. Will use Amsoil 5w50 signature series from next oil change due in a week’s time.
Take care,
SS
Ford isn’t the inventor of combined port and direct injection. Toyota did this for the 2006 MY 3.5 litre six cylinders, and their 5.0 litre V-8s from MY 2008. It is now common in many larger Toyota engines for two reasons – no coking on the intake valves from EGR implementation by cam timing, and improved mid-range power. There is an SAE paper documenting this – Development of V-6 3.5-liter Engine Adopting New Direct Injection System, authors Takuya Ikoma, Shizuo Abe, Yukihiro Sonoda and Hisao Suzuki
Toyota Motor Corporation
Yuichi Suzuki
Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd.
Masatoshi Basaki
Nippon Soken Inc.
You can find this on the web in a couple of places for free download, but the upshot of all this is, the Lexus IS-250 had DI only engines, and suffers exactly the issues everyone else’s DI engines suffers. The 2GR-FSE and the 2UR-GSE engines have combined port and direct injection and do not have any of the issues.
And not to be confused – DI isn’t at fault here. Using variable cam timing to invoke EGR is what is at fault. The exhaust gases intentionally remaining in the cylinder get sent back up the intake port where the relatively cold intake valve and intake port get the carbon to stick and build up under light loads as is common while cruising on the highway. The OEMs no longer use all the plumbing and valves to invoke EGR to reduce NOx, they just do the same job with the variable cam timing now ubiquitous in modern engines because it can all be done with software and it reduces cost and parts count.
There are lots of good things GDI does, but blaming it for intake valve and port coking isn’t exactly fair. My very favorite thing about GDI is you’re able to run much higher compression because you have heat of vaporization working for you with DI where you don’t with PI. Every gearhead knows power comes from the highest compression you can safely run with the fuel you have available to you. GDI pushes the envelope on that really nicely.
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Hi again,
Some good info there for other readers who might be interested in more details. But, it could leave some a little confused. Most of my Blog readers are interested in a concise wind-up of various topics. If I go into too much in-depth background info, they will often glaze over and move on to something else.
So, I try to be mindful of that and keep my write-ups as simple and to the point as I can. That is what I did with the info I shared about Port Injection, Direct Injection, and combined Dual Injection.
I did NOT say that Ford invented Dual Injection. I only referenced them as one manufacturer using Dual Injection. The bottom line is that software alone, is not the magical cure-all for Direct Injection woes. That’s where you could be confusing some readers. For that reason, I almost did not post your message. It’s just not that simple. If it was that simple, manufacturers could have saved the cost and complexity of Dual Injection, and simply reprogrammed their software. But, the fact is, it requires Port Injection to keep intake valves clean. Thus, we now see the FAR BETTER Dual Injection taking center stage, so to speak.
At the end of the day, “Direct Injection only” engines are not well developed OVERALL, and cause major problems for their owners. So, “Direct Injection only” engine’s should be avoided. Dual Injection engines are the only way to go. So, that is what I shared with my readers.
Take care,
540 RAT
Have you ever tested “MotorKote” anti-friction additive? The link I included is a real world non-biased test that makes the product look quite good.
I’d like a comment if you can provide one and ask if I send a bottle of MotorKote to you will you be willing to test it combined with an oil sample. I have no affiliation with the product and don’t usually use oil additives.
Regards,
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I no longer waste my time testing any aftermarket additives. Because they upset a motor oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, making it WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for an oil’s wear protection capability. A highly ranked, high performing motor oil, does NOT need any help.
I don’t post other links here, because I don’t want links going to products that should not be used. I try to provide only GOOD information for my Blog readers.
Take care,
540 RAT
“I don’t post other links here, because I don’t want links going to products that should not be used. I try to provide only GOOD information for my Blog readers.”
I understand. It’s just that you did post tests on a couple of other additives. I haven’t used an additive in decades.
Peter
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Yes, I have posted tests on a few aftermarket additives, several years ago. But, once it became clear that some, such as zinc additives, completely ruin a motor oil, and that any benefit others MAY provide, can vary greatly, depending on which oil they are added to, and that they almost always negatively impact the factory’s carefully balanced additive package, I stopped wasting my time with them.
And just because they are on my Ranking List, people tend to think I am recommending them, which I DO NOT. So, I have made a real effort to make it clear that aftermarket additives should NEVER be used. And that the ones that are on my Ranking List, are only there because of requests I have gotten in the past, and that they are there for informational purposes ONLY. If I simply removed them now, it would mess up the Ranking List numbers, and cause too much confusion.
Bottom Line: Select a highly ranked, high performance oil in the first place, and it won’t need any help.
540 RAT
Hi, just curious, if you’ve had a chance to test the Amazon Basics oil?
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Hi Amy,
No, I haven’t. Every oil I have tested, is on my Wear Protection Ranking List. That is the primary reason for my Blog. I’m curious why anyone would think I have Test Data on an oil, and then not post it.
540 RAT
I have found your blog very interesting.
The only thing on here that doesn’t appear to have empirical scientific backing is your “Recommended Oil Change Interval” section. I would love to see a scientific analysis of say Mobil 1 0W40 FS Euro Formula over a 10k mile use with a little beating on it.
That brand/viscosity is OEM fill for Porsche vehicle with a recommended oil change interval of 10K miles. I would love to see how it stacks up at new vs 5K miles vs 10K miles from use in a typical Porsche Flat 6.
If you need donor oil, I have a 2014 Boxster S that I daily drive and take to the track half-dozen times a year.
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Hi Wade,
If after reading my Section on “Recommended Oil Change Interval”, you are still not convinced of the importance of reasonable oil change intervals, then I can’t help you.
After reading all that, why on earth would you ever even consider extended oil change intervals? I’d like to see your empirical scientific data “proving” that extended oil change intervals are somehow beneficial.
Auto Makers went to extended oil change intervals for Marketing reasons, NOT for Engineering reasons. Because extended oil change intervals make their vehicles’ cost of ownership numbers look better, that’s it. Extended oil change intervals do NOT help your engine at all.
In case you weren’t aware of it, 5,000 mile oil change intervals used to be the normal called for oil change interval, and all of a sudden, it was changed to far longer, even though engines did not change and motor oil did not change. That is when Marketing got involved.
And expensive synthetic oil makers claim their oil can use extended oil change intervals, only as a Marketing scam to convince potential buyers that, that will justify their high price. Buyer beware!
Using extended oil change intervals is much like using the same dirty, contaminated, disgusting bath water over, and over, and over again, for say a year, that also contains higher levels of abrasives, and depleted levels of needed components. I suppose you could technically do that, but why would anyone with any sense at all, want to do that?
If you still feel compelled to use extended oil change intervals, then knock yourself out, because you clearly don’t care about doing what’s best for your engine.
The whole point of my Blog is to provide readers with motor oil facts, and also with recommendations that are in the best interest of them and their vehicles, so that they are informed as to how to do the right thing.
But, if you choose to ignore all that and do the wrong thing, that is up to you.
540 RAT
You missed my point. I’m an engineer myself. I’ve always done 5K mile changes with conventional oil, and I personally struggle with this 10K interval with synthetic, but I have no data on my side. Can you provide any scientific data to help sway me?
Your blog does a great job of presenting a wealth of well-compiled empirical scientific evidence for your wear ratings for new oil, but in this area you provide only anecdotal evidence. I’m not suggesting you are wrong in your recommendation, I’m suggesting you haven’t presented any scientific data to back it up.
Why is 5000 OK on conventional, but not 10000 on full synthetic. Why is 3000 too frequent? At what point does oil use really affect the lubrication performance? What does the data point to?
For that matter, a number of scientific studies actually indicate that fresh oil has considerably worse wear characteristics than used oil:
As far as your anecdotal evidence, I don’t think cost of ownership is a concern for BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Bentley, Aston Martin owners. All these manufacturers recommend 1-yr, 10K mile oil changes with full synthetic oil. Jaguar recommends a 1-yr, 16K mile interval. Why?
As far as the oil manufacturers go, don’t they actually make more money selling you conventional oil at $17/gal than they make selling you synthetic oil at $26/gal that you change half as often. (I’m not sure of the profit margins on one vs. the other, but the net cost is higher to the consumer to use conventional oil).
So, aside from the anecdotal evidence for your Recommended Change Interval, do you have any scientific evidence you can provide?
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WOW, you sure have a tough time being able to grasp the information here, for someone who claims to be an Engineer. And it doesn’t matter if you don’t think Manufacturers care about the cost of ownership numbers, because they do. It’s not about the absolute cost per se. It’s about how competing products compare to each other. Because auto buyers are very fickle, and Manufacturers are well aware of that, even if you are not. Engineering did NOT drive the ridiculously long called-for oil change intervals we see in newer vehicles today. Marketing drove it.
My previous response to you, and my Tech Article on Recommended Oil Change Interval, provide nearly all the information I have on this topic. You don’t need to keep asking the same question over and over. It will not change my answer, other than the addition of the following.
I only post NEW motor oil test data, so that we have a standard baseline for comparison of all oils tested. However, I have tested a number of used oils also, that are not included on my Wear Protection Ranking List. And those used oil tests provided mixed results. Some oils tested about the same as when new. Some oils tested as much as 10% better than when new. And some oils totally failed my normal motor oil torture testing, and completely seized. That is scientific test data on used oil for you. Make of that what you will. But, the fact is, using reasonable oil change intervals, will keep you out of trouble, which is why I recommend the interval that I do.
And by the way, there is no such thing as changing oil too often. That does NOT hurt anything at all. But, it can be wasteful of money and resources.
The type or cost of the oil being used, conventional or synthetic, has no bearing on motor oil contamination, additive depletion, abrasive build-up, fuel induced dilution, etc, that takes place as miles accumulate on the oil. Therefore, I recommend the same ideal oil change interval previously discussed, for either type of oil.
But, all you want to do is argue. So, now you are wasting my time, and other Blog readers’ time. And I don’t have time for anymore of your nonsense. As I said before, if the information I have provided is not good enough for you, do whatever you want. You can make use of my Blog’s information, or you can ignore it. Either way, it makes no difference to me.
540 RAT
Hi 540 RAT – Thanks for your exhaustive approach to motor oil for our benefit!! – now bookmarked!
A bunch of us on a FIAT 124 (’66 – ‘85.5) fb site love the never ending debate of, “what motor oil do you use?”. One of the members just shared your Blog and I ate it up!. I realize from your thorough descriptions of flow and volumes and temp, and that every car will be different to some extent but there must/maybe be a range, of old OEM engines verses newly rebuilt high compression engines. As the shop manual for my ’79 calls for a 15w40 to 10w30 there is options open to us from FIAT.
My own ride that I’ve had now in the Toronto ON Canada area for 19 years happily runs with no blue smoke, I’ve been running a 10w30 Castrol GTX conventional in it for the past years, but also the 15w40 Shell Rotella T4. I’m guessing my oil pump is not running at original specs.,… So, I’m worried over suction / bubbles. You have me thinking of chasing down either Valvoline 10w40 Max Life high milage, Valvoline 10w30 VR1 conventional,.. or Castrol 5w30 GTX magnetic,.. … or Shell 5w40 Rotella T6,… or Amsoil 5w30 Signature Series,.. or Penzoil 5w30 high milage v,.. or Castrol 20w50 GTX conventional,.. or Castrol 5w20 conventional ,… or Valvoline 5w20 Premium conventional motor oils. My head is spinning a bit,.. as for my old ride with probably loose margins do I still want a thicker oil, or is my worry not well placed and I’d be better off with a thinner oil that will keep air bubbles lowest and temperatures lowest,.. I’m not driving in the desert, but stop and go traffic getting out on the weekends can be very hot, then I bomb it on the back roads – as fast as the law allows naturally.
I’m guessing your review of the Valvoline 10w40 Max Life high milage, will be the best of both worlds,..? Good on my old seals, with low enough cold number, okay hot number for ripping around cottage country and the fun back roads of Ontario? I think many of the oils you mentioned I would have a hard time sourcing, except for the ones I mentioned above. So, do you have any tips for us in the old FIAT 124 DOVC spiders clubs? I’m hoping your experience will guide me and maybe ‘us’ to enjoying our engines for years to come based on science and physics and not on a bottle because it’s green, or red or white,..
I probably have more typos here than you had editorial errors in your whole Blog! – You are an impressive writer. Thanks again for sharing your research!
Enjoy your day – Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Thanks for the kind words. I’m glad to hear that you appreciate my Blog.
I provide factual info, and leave it up to the vehicle owner to decide on which particular oil they want to use.
But, a few words of caution. Rotella is a poor performing Diesel oil and should not be among your choices, when there are many, many other far superior gasoline engine oils readily available.
And I have found over the past few years, that Castrol has greatly reduced the capability of their motor oils, apparently to cut costs and maximize profits. So, I no longer use, nor recommend their products.
As for viscosity in your application, if you avoid overly thick 50wt oils, you should not have a serious problem with air bubbles.
Take care,
540 RAT
Someone that has not ran into this section would assume you are recommending Oil Extreme Concentrate. Does this hold true?
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Hi Jorge,
That has never been true. People should NOT assume anything. Because that can get them into trouble.
If people actually read my Blog, they would know full well, that Oil Extreme Conentrate helps poor performing oils, but hurts good performing oils.
There are a few aftermarket additives on my Ranking List for informational purposes only. But, I have NEVER recommended using them. And I stopped testing any more of them a few years ago. Because it became clear that they ruin an oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, and make the oil WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for the oil’s wear protection capability.
A good performing motor oil will not need any help.
Take care,
540 RAT
Put Mobil 0W40 FS european formula in my 2015 Jeta SE and from my TONWON OBD II reader I noticed and average of 2 degrees cooler on all drive situations.
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Hi Nelson,
Thanks for sharing your info.
Take care,
540 RAT
Mr. 540 Rat,
I have written to you 2 times before about oil consumption in my 1994 Dodge B250 Van with the 5.2 (318) engine. Based on the information available on your blog I returned to using conventional oil and consumption is now at an acceptable level.
During all this I also switched to 5W30 although my user manual specifies 10W30 and 5W30 is acceptable in very cold climates. I live in Texas and seldom see really cold weather, and it runs just fine on the 5W30.
Considering all this, are there applications where 10W30 is preferable to 5W30?
Thank you, Ken Davis
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Hi Ken,
No, 5W30 is always a better choice than 10W30. Here’s why. Both are rated as 30wt oils at normal operating temperature. So, they are equivalent where an engine spends 99% of its life. And 10W30 is rated as 10W oil when cold, where 5W30 is rated as a 5wt oil when cold.
That means that 5W30 will flow better during cold start-up and as the engine is warming up, which is ideal. So, if you use 5W30, there is absolutely no reason to ever consider 10W30 again.
In fact, there is no reason for 10W30 to even be on the market. It could be dropped from the market entirely, and that would be no loss at all.
Take care,
540 RAT
I have a bottle of oil I’d like to send in that is not on your list. How do I send you a quart of oil? Send e mail to my username at google mail please and I will send the oil. It’s very popular among a certain enthusiast circle and I’d like to see how it stacks up.
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Hi Anthony,
I’m not accepting any oil for testing at this time, because my schedule is too busy.
And you have to tell me what the oil is, and what the viscosity is, to see if I’ll agree to test it, before sending it. You can’t just send me some mystery oil. Because properly testing an oil, is a time consuming effort. And I don’t waste my time testing certain brands or viscosities of oil.
I don’t send emails from this Blog. I only communicate with my readers from this Q&A Section. So, we can only discuss things here.
You can check back with me if you want, in a few months, to see if my schedule has opened up by then.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi 540 RAT,
I’d love to see you test Amsoil Signature Series 0w40 (not the diesel one, the one formulated to meet the Chrysler MS12633 spec for SRT engines).. and the Signature Series 5w50.. I’m extremely curious how they’d rank.
Thanks for all the great info!
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Hi there,
I don’t bother testing many thicker oils such as multi-viscosity 40wt or 50wt oils, because they are thicker than ideal. There is simply no good reason for factory automotive engines to call for oil that thick. See my Tech Article on Viscosity Selection, and you will see why.
5W30 is THE BEST OVERALL viscosity to use, in most automotive engines, including High Performance engines. I personally use 5W30 in my 600 HP engine and in my 800 HP engine.
And there is a number of very impressive High Performance 5W30 oils to choose from. See my Wear Protection Ranking List for which ones they are.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hello, You have no idea how glad I am to have found this blog. I have been pulling my hair out trying to find the best oil to use on my vehicle. There are so many opinions and “experts” online without any testing results to back it up it becomes impossible to settle on an answer. Your website makes it very simple indeed so thank you for the info you provide.
I have a Porsche 2003 996 which apparently has some design flaws around the water cooling of the cylinder bores (insufficient cooling in some scenarios) which can lead to bore scoring. Hartech is an engine builder in the UK that have spent a lot of time looking into and testing solutions to these problems and one of their recommendations is to use Millers CFS 10w50 to provide extra protection. You have tested Millers 0W30 CFS which comes in at 33 on your list so potentially a great oil for me. However I can’t get it in my country (New Zealand). So I am looking for an alternative to this that is close to the test results of the Millers.
The Porsche factory recommended oils (Porsche A40 specification) are all 0W40 and 0W50 oils and 1 5W50 oil (Mobil1). Porsche themselves have a “Classic” oil they sell branded as Porsche Classic which I note is a 5W50 oil for water cooled engines such as mine. I suspect its mostly Mobil1 5w50 with some additional additives since they have a big partnership with Mobil. Presumably they are recommending 5W50 for higher mileage engines where the tolerances have reduced.
From your list, the Mobil 1 0W40 “FS” European Car Formula seems to be the most likely option for me to use. Except I am currently using the Mobil1 5W50 engine oil (ranked 116 on your list) which is Porsche approved and I am now wondering if I should stick with a 5W50 given that is what Porsche seem to be implying for higher mileage engines (mine has 100,000 miles).
I would appreciate your input on if you think I could safely take my oil back to a 0W40 or 5W40 oil given it has issues with clearing heat from around the bores under some scenarios or am I better to stick with a 5W50 oil given its age?
Many Thanks!
Darren
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Hi Darren,
I’m glad to hear that you find my Blog to be helpful. And thanks for the kind words, I appreciate that.
As you have discovered, Automotive Internet Forums are the WORST possible place to get motor oil info. Most people there think they are motor oil experts, even though they are completely unqualified, have no idea what they are talking about, and have no data to back-up anything they say. You did the right thing by ignoring them, and coming here.
50wt oil is insanely too thick for any water cooled automotive engine. European Auto makers don’t seem to understand motor oil. Mercedes in their M engines called for stupid thick 60wt oil, and actually CAUSED countless rod bearing failures. 5W30 was a far better choice. See my Tech Article on that.
40wt oil is also too thick to be ideal. See my Tech Article on Viscosity Selection. You don’t need super thick oil for your application. You need a High Performance oil that can withstand high temperature before reaching thermal breakdown.
5W30 is an ideal oil viscosity overall, for most automotive engines, including High Performance engines. I personally use 5W30 in my 600 HP engine and in my 800 HP engine.
Engines that call for thicker oil, can also use 5W30 as long as they can still produce acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with the thinner 5W30. Countless people have made the switch, and their engines are far better off with it.
I try not to promote any particular motor oil. Because I have no stake in what oil anyone uses. So, I do not tell people which particular oil to use, I leave that up to them to decide, after they have read my Blog.
But, I will say, that if I were in your particular situation, I would probably use the amazing High Performance 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil, and see if the “HOT” oil pressure is still acceptable.
Thinner oil may cause increased oil consumption in older engines. So, you would also to want to keep track of that possibility.
Take care,
540 RAT
Many thanks 540 RAT.
Funnily enough, just yesterday after I sent this message I had another look on your list and I found a local distributor of Amsoil in this country and got in contact. I have more or less firmed up a decision to go with Amsoil based on your information and other info I found. I was going to go with their 5W50 Signature Series, but will now order 5W30 instead and monitor oil pressure which by all accounts should be no problem as at the moment, I feel its on the high side with just under 2 bar on warm idle. There are plenty of experts online arguing about what the oil pressure should be as well! Factory simply says at 5000rpm it should be around 3.5 bar (50psi) which lines up with what I read on your blog about RPM and oil pressure.
Actually, I just looked in the service manual and 5W30 can be used and when I look at its service history, 5W30 has in fact been used in the past on this vehicle for at least a couple of services and years (Castrol Longlife III). Its only the current Porsche A40 standard which seems to have minimum 0/5W40. Porsche manual says you can only use 0W30 if it has the Porsche A40 standard approval. But I’m confident Amsoil is better than most if not all Porsche A40 approved oils anyhow.
Interestingly, on these cars some folks install a deeper oil pan to add more oil volume and with better baffle design on these vehicles because there are concerns that when on track with sticky track tires, oil starvation at the oil pickup becomes an issue. Some think its because oil is not flowing back quick enough so they add more oil volume to the system via the deeper aftermarket pan. Presumably 0W30 oil could flow back quicker than 5W50 would as there is a difference in the warm viscosity of 5W30 versus 5W50. Not really a concern for me as I don’t yet go on track and would only use road tires if I did anyhow. But interesting none the less.
Many thanks again. I feel confident we have found a solution to my dilemma and I can now sleep easy.
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Hi again Darren,
I’m glad I could help.
Take care,
540 RAT
I have a 57 t-bird 312 engine with dual 4 barrel carbs. Using your oil document I plan to use Valvoline 5W20 max-life high mileage oil. Would you recommend a different oil for this car?
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Hi Phylls,
Yes, I would definitely recommend a different oil. It is a good thing you contacted me before using that oil. Your old Classic 312 T-Bird engine was never designed for oil that thin. So, it has no business using it. I don’t typically recommend what oil people should use. I let them read my Blog and decide for themselves, what oil to use. But, in your case I will make a rare exception, and suggest you consider using 10W40 Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle conventional motor oil. That would be an ideal choice for your engine.
Take care,
540 RAT
Mr. 540 Rat,
Thank you for answering my question related to 5W30 and 10W30 motor oil. I was not surprised by your answer in that I have been reading and referring to your Motor Oil Engineering Test Data for a couple of years. My own experience with 5W30 verified your information. In my opinion the reason 10W30 is still quite prevalent in the market is most people have not seen your blog. Before I discovered your blog I would not have considered 5W30 in my van, it was just too “thin”.
Anyway, thank you again for your invaluable information and all the effort you have put into this endeavor. Priceless.
Ken Davis
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Hi again Ken,
Thanks for the kind words, and for being one of my Blog readers for the past couple of years. I appreciate that.
It was good to hear from you,
540 RAT
Hi Rat,
I see some full synthetic automobile oil I have not heard of before has hit the market, at least at Walmart. Maxx Oils, “Pro Max” in the typical weights and in Blue 5 quart jugs. Priced at 17.52 for 10W/30 right now. Is this an oil you have heard much about, and any plans to test it (in the 5W-30 weight of course)
Another note, I am getting my 440 Mopar block back from the machinist this week and putting together my 493 Stroker. Plan is to use 5W-30 Amsoil Signature series. Second choice is 5W-30 QS FS. I figure I cannot go wrong. It will have a solid roller cam, 14:1 compression,6 pack,look stock, and flow through factory HP manifolds. Going in a 1971 Barracuda. Should be fun!
By the way–when I go racing at BIR, and go to swap meets, I talk about you and your blogs to others. Talk about some “cement heads” Some guys worship the lower rated motor oils like they are a god. All I tell them is to at least give your site a read, then they can go and complain to their other sites!
Keep it up!
Jeff -440guy
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Hi again Jeff,
No, I am not familiar with Maxx Oils. So, I have no plans at this time, to test them. There seems to be a never-ending variety motor oils on the market.
Thanks for sharing info about my Blog with others. And yes, it amazing just how many people there are out there, who are completely clueless about motor oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
On a classic 1974 Corvette, could I use 5w30 or should I stick to 10w30?
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Hi again Jorge,
5W30 is always a better choice than 10W30. Both are rated as 30wt when hot. And 5W30 flows better when cold, which is ideal for cold start-up, and during engine warm-up. If 10W30 was dropped off the market, it would be no loss at all. Because it serves no purpose.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat,
been doing some round track roller engines and always use rev kits. never lost a roller lifter.(yet) my thinking is it helps with lifters slaming and banging.
what are your thoughts on this.
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Hi Jonas,
You apparently are not running a traditional Big Block Chevy engine, because it is very difficult to fit a good rev kit on those engines, because of their canted valve setup. And those BBC engines are the most vulnerable to premature “solid” roller lifter failure, due to pounding and bouncing within their valve lash.
For engines that are suitable for a rev kit, yes that may help extend solid roller lifter life somewhat. But, even with a rev kit, solid roller lifter setups still have valve lash for the valve train above the lifters, to pound and bounce around in, which still effects the lifters. So, even a rev kit is not a cure-all. And rev kit engines will still suffer solid roller lifter failure sooner than most would like.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi,
I love the Blog, I keep up with it and check it every few months.
I have been a member of a few car groups on FB and have shared the link to the blog so others can be helped and informed.
If you would kindly review the newer bottles of Supertech synthetic oils (in blue bottles) and the QS ultimate durability in 10w-30.
Me and every one on my groups realize it takes time, money and effort to do what you do and we appreciate it all! Thank you so much.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
I’m glad to hear that you and others enjoy my Blog. And thanks for sharing it with others as well.
I tested Supertech synthetic and conventional oils fairly recently. So, there is no real reason to test them again at this time.
I usually try to only test the 5W30 versions of most motor oils, when the 5W30 viscosity is available, because that viscosity is the best all around viscosity, for the largest number of engines.
It just isn’t possible to test every single viscosity of every single motor oil on the market. Because as you said, it takes a lot of time, effort and money to perform so many Engineering tests.
I have spent an enormous amount of my own money and time, on equipment, motor oil and testing. I don’t charge any money for people to read my Blog, and I don’t charge any money to test oil for my readers. So, I have never made even one penny from this Blog.
But, I now usually require that people send me the oil they request to have tested, if I agree to test it. I only test oil that makes sense to test. So, there are some brands and viscosities that I don’t waste my time testing.
Professionally, I am a Mechanical Design Engineer, working for a major Corporation. Therefore, testing the wear characteristics between mechanical components under load, is a perfect fit for my field of expertise.
But, because I work a full time job, I created and maintain this Blog in my spare time, when I get a chance. Therefore, my time available for motor oil testing is rather limited.
Regarding your QSUD request, as I mentioned above, I don’t test other viscosities, such as 10W30 in this case, when 5W30 is available. Because 5W30 is ALWAYS the better choice. Here’s why: Both of those oils are rated as 30wt oils when at HOT operating temperature, where oils spend 99% of their life. And 5W30 is rated as a 5wt when cold, where 10W30 is rated as a 10wt when cold. That means 5W30 flows better during cold engine start-up, and during engine warm-up, which is ideal, and highly desirable.
Bottom Line: There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to ever use 10W30, if the FAR better 5W30 is available. You might want to share this information with all of your groups. Because many people don’t understand this, and go the wrong direction.
It is very unfortunate that so many people read wrong information about motor oil, all over the Internet, and go the wrong direction.
The whole point of my Blog, is to provide FACTS about motor oil, that cannot be found anywhere else. That way, people can make intelligent decisions about the motor oil they choose.
Thanks for getting in touch,
540 RAT
Hi 540 Rat,
I really appreciate all the testing that you do to help consumers make more logical motor oil choices. I too am a big fan of QSUD, as it is a great oil and extremely economical as well. I would be interested in seeing your test results on QSUD 0w-20 in the newer Dexos 1 gen 2 spec.
I would like to send some in for testing at your earliest convenience. I’ll actually send you any oil that you’d like to test just to see the data base grow and give people more informed choices.
Keep up the good work,
LV Thompson
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Hi LV, it’s good to hear from you. And thanks for the kind words.
I have no plans to retest motor oils just for the newer dexos 1 gen 2 spec. That is not enough of a formula update, if an oil was even updated at all, to justify retesting numerous dozens of oils. In fact, that updated spec does not even mean oils were necessarily reformulated at all. It just means that oils carrying that spec on their bottles, meet that spec. See my Tech Article on dexos 1 gen 2, for more info on that.
I really do appreciate your offer to send in oil for testing, but my schedule is currently too busy to accept any additional oil for testing. And I already have several oils in line for testing, when I can get to it. But, if you are still interested in a few months, you could check back with me then.
Take care,
540 RAT
‘ll be sure to take a look at that tech article when I get a chance. I assumed there would be some changes in the Dexos 1 gen 2 add packages to combat LSPI. I have read that calcium levels have been reduced and Molybdenum levels increased in the bulk of the VOA’s in Dexos 1 gen 2 formulations.
I’m just hoping that the new QSUD 0w-20 is every bit as impressive as the dexos 1 version.
When you get the chance i’d love to send you some Ravenol 0w-20 for some testing.
I can only imagine how hard it is being an engineer while maintaining this blog and simultaneously doing scientific research.
I’m a petroleum engineer myself so i’m very aware of your time restraints.
Once again thanks for your incredible effort, and let me know if I can be of assistance.
LV Thompson