Rat just replying to your comment to me. I have a 392 Scatpack Shaker Challenger. The owners manual states that the oil must be changed every 6000 miles or 6 months and NEVER to exceed 6 months. It also requires 0w-40 motor oil and recommends oil meeting spec MS-12633, which conveniently is rare and only a few oils qualify. They recommend Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (which is MS-12633 certified) and it even has SRT on the bottle. Sounds like Dodge and Pennzoil have a little deal going one here…
As to whether they would know what I used if I had a warranty claim, they state in the owners manual, if I do my own maintenance, I would have to supply my receipts and prove I used the correct oil and filter. I know the oil and change requirement (6 months) is all bs, but right now I have to do the dance for the warranty. But, I am concerned about 0w-40 for this SRT 6.4L engine.
If I hadn’t found your blog, I would just be oblivious and content paying the high price for an average oil for the Challenger. But I am a perfectionist and am not satisfied unless I use the best I can get for the dollar.
thanks
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Hi again,
That is truly disgusting how they are holding you hostage over Warranty. And I can understand your desire to keep your Warranty intact, since Chrysler/Dodge has pretty much the worst quality and reliability record of any US Automaker. So, you are very likely to need your Warranty at some point. But, what they are doing is the kind of thing you would expect from Communists, and should NOT be allowed to stand. What has happened to the US?
It’s not like your car is a Super Performance car like a Hellcat, Hellcat Redeye, or a Demon. It is a down to earth normal Performance car, so they have absolutely no technical reason for doing that.
There is no question that they would be smacked down in a court of law for extortion, etc. I’m sure they never disclosed that severe Warranty restriction “BEFORE” you paid your money. They are only getting away with all that, because they know that 99% of their buyers would never take them to court. Let’s hope that 1% does.
They deserve to be put out of business for having such an outrageous business practice. At the very least, they should be boycotted and made to suffer greatly for what they are doing. Hearing about that does make one’s blood boil. I hope after reading about this, others will decide to spend their money with other brands.
You would think that a Company with such a poor quality record would make an extra effort to support and please their customers, to promote repeat and future sales. But not Chrysler/Dodge, all they do is screw their customers over, and give them the finger.
As for you personally, if you are not willing to dump that car, or sue them, then you are basically stuck with them. Fortunately, what they are forcing you to do, probably won’t hurt your car, as long as you are not super hard on it.
But, it does point out that they do not have much confidence in the quality of their engines, or they would not be forcing you to do what they apparently think is the only thing that can help it.
In the process, they have also shown that their people do NOT know what they are doing when it comes to motor oil. Because 0W40 is NOT the ideal viscosity for water cooled gasoline engines, for a whole host of reasons. See my Section 2 on Viscosity Selection for all the details on that topic.
The 0W40 Pennzoil Ultra I tested a few years ago, could only produce a disappointing 81,863 psi, which has it ranked a pitiful 143rd out of the 241 oils I’ve tested so far.
The IDEAL viscosity for most water cooled gasoline engines is 5W30. I use 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability full synthetic in all my own engines, including my 600 HP and 800 HP High Performance engines. 5W30 QSUD produces an extremely impressive 133,135 psi, which ranks it 6th out of 241 oils. That’s why I use it and recommend it to my Blog readers. And it can be purchased for a really affordable price at Walmart, which is icing on the cake.
This whole fiasco caused by Chrysler/Dodge is absolutely infuriating. I suggest you never buy anything from them again. There are much better Companies and much better similar vehicles readily available.
If I were you, here is a “work-around” plan I would use to give Chrysler/Dodge the finger right back, and would allow me to do what I know is best for my engine, while still keeping my Warranty intact. It would cost a little extra money, but would be more than worth it to me.
I’d buy the oil and filters they require, with the proper dates on the receipts. BUT, I’d never use them. Then I’d buy 5W30 QSUD along with an oil filter I wanted, and change the oil and filter myself once a year, using the good stuff instead of what they are trying to force buyers to use. But, of course you could not have that done at a Dodge Dealer. You’d have to do the oil change yourself, or take it to a different Shop.
That would be Win-Win, where you’d still have your Warranty, and at the same time, you’d be doing what is best for your engine. But, you would just be out a little more money, that you’d have to chalk-up to the cost of doing business with despicable Chrysler/Dodge.
I have read several of your comments, and I find them very informative…many thanks.
In terms of heavy duty CK4/SN conventional diesel oil (10W30 and 15W40), Ford still has not approved any heavy duty diesel oil (HDDO) that does not contain a minimum of 1000 PM of phosphorus. However, many major oil blenders (Mobil, Chevron, and Valvoline) are only blending low phosphorus HDDOs (800 PPM). Also, all the major OEM diesel engine builders have approved low phosphorus HDDOs in high output diesel applications.
So, the question: are HDDOs blended with lower phosphorus levels providing equivalent or better protection than HDDOs that contain higher (1000 PPM) of phosphorus? This HDDO phosphorus debate remains a hot topic, especially due to Ford’s position. I would appreciate your input.
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Hi RG,
You came to the right place for the answer you need regarding what oil to use.
The only reason it is a hot topic, is because people who don’t know what they are talking about, including Ford, incorrectly believe that zinc and/or phosphorus levels indicate an oils wear protection capability.
If you’ve read much of my Blog, you know that my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil, has proven over, and over, and over again, that motor oil component quantities CANNOT predict an oil’s wear protection capability. That whole line of thinking is a total MYTH that is perpetuated by people who endlessly repeat WRONG information. Of course repeating wrong information a million times does NOT make it magically become true.
So, ignore Ford and all the idiots spewing garbage on Internet Forums. The only thing that truly matters, is the psi value that an oil can produce in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil.
And my testing shows that Amsoil Max-Duty Signature Series synthetic Diesel oils are the best performing, commonly available mainstream CK-4/SN HDDO’s on the market. They are available in 0W40, 5W40, and 15W40. Use one of those oils and you won’t have to care about what anyone else says.
But, if you are dead set on using a conventional Diesel oil, then lesser known 10W30 LE (Lubrication Engineers) Monolec Ultra Diesel oil, is also a CK-4 oil you could consider, that actually outperformed those Amsoil oils.
I have to say I am so pleased to have stumbled across this blog. It has confirmed so many of my suspicions and experiences and makes me feel so good about making a lot of people angry with my comments and oil choices.
I have a degree in Automotive Restoration and in that course learning about motor oils was like having my head carved open with a band saw. So much misinformation and old guy talk about ZDDP and flat tappet cams and how new oils are so bad old motors. I don’t have a engineering degree, but even I found it extremely hard to believe that the lab boys at the oil companies couldn’t find a way to improve oil at all in the 60 years since my instructors were born. I’m glad to know I wasn’t the crazy one.
I won’t even get into what we were taught when it comes to coolants.
I do have a question for you regarding my Lemons Racecar. Its a 1988 BMW 535is with the M30B34 engine.
I am currently running AMSOIL Dominator 15w-50 in it. Have you tested this grade of Dominator or its 5w-50 Signature Series sister?
Based on what your blog has taught me, I may be better off with the Signature Series oil. Just wondering if you had the figures for those two oils.
And knowing what I know now, I might try a 40 grade oil in this engine and see if I can maintain a reasonable pressure. But that is doubtful as the oiling in this engine is…. not great. Even with the Crankscraper and other oiling mods done.
I am now trying to find a high volume pump for it so I can run the 5w-30 in this application because we are endurance racing with no oil cooler and I know that oil is getting toasty in there even though our water temps were rock steady at 81C (finally thank god.)
Looking forward to your insight,
Gregory
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Hi Gregory,
Welcome to my Blog. I’m glad to see that you are very happy with it.
Yes, it is extremely bothersome how so many people who don’t know what they are talking about, keep spewing completely WRONG information about motor oil. They believed the bad information when they heard about it, then they keep repeating it. That’s how it is on every Automotive Forum out there. They put out nothing but garbage information. And more people read that, then they repeat it over and over. But of course, repeating bad information over and over a million times, does NOT make it magically become true. It is frightening how people just blindly accept all that bad information with absolutely no proof to back it up. It was all just made up from guessing. Unbelievable!!!
But, anyone can always come to my Blog for the TRUTH.
I have not tested those two specific Amsoil oils. I don’t test too many XW50 oils because they are simply way too thick for Automotive use, and have no business being used in water cooled gasoline engines. They are only appropriate for “air cooled” engines.
I suggest that you switch to Amsoil Signature Series oils which are very impressive, which you are already aware of. As you know, the thinner the oil, the better, down to 5W30, but no thinner than that. 5W30 is the ideal viscosity for most water cooled gasoline engines.
Hello 540 RAT,
I have a 2006 Yamaha FJR1300 sport touring motorcycle. The shop manual recommends a 20w40 viscosity oil. I am currently using a 50/50 mix of the conventional Valvoline VR1 racing oils, 10w30 and 20w50. I think that would equal to a 15w40? Anyway, I like the way it shifts through all the gears. Smooth, with very minimal clicking. I picked theses 2 viscositys after having read your blog several times, based on the psi values. You recommend using a 5w30, such as QSUD. My concern would be, is it going to shift a little harder and could that eventually, damage the transmission? I also considered using Mobil 1 0w40 fs European Formula. I’m not worried about clutch slippage, as I’ve always thought that if the clutch is in great shape, using automotive oil shouldn’t make it slip. Thank you! – Joe S.
P.S. Quantum Blue has some oil products that it would be interesting to see how they compare in your oil testing. Check it out.
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Hi Joe,
There is no reason at all to be concerned that your bike might shift harder or possibly damage the transmission when using 5W30 QSUD. It is one of the VERY BEST performers in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. When it comes to Wear Protection Capability, it is FAR SUPERIOR to either of the VR1 Racing oils you are using.
And to further put your mind at ease, an Engineering colleague of mine, is using 5W30 QSUD in both his Yamaha Street bike, and in his Suzuki Sport bike. He says they both shift perfectly fine, and their clutches are also perfectly fine. With 5W30 QSUD, he is providing his engines and transmissions with top of the line protection, with no downside at all. So, 5W30 QSUD can do the same for you and your bike.
I have had a number of Blog readers also report excellent results when using 5W30 QSUD in their bikes.
All this is additional proof that the Motorcycle Industry requiring Owners to use only so-called “motorcycle oil”, is nothing but a scam to increase their profits. And JASO hides their “test results” of so-called motorcycle oil vs Automotive oil. They just provide a list of oils that they approve. Why are they deliberately hiding their test results if they are an honest organization? I share all my Engineering Test Data on motor oil for the whole world to see and compare.
As for Quantum Blue, they have the most bizarre business model I have ever heard of. You cannot just order the motor oil you want from them. You have to answer some questions, then “THEY TELL YOU” what oil they will send you. With them, the customer is NOT always right. That seems like a perfect way to quickly put yourself out of business. But, it apparently works for them, because they have been around for a number of years.
I have no interest in using their motor oil. But yes, it would be interesting to put their oil to the test to see if it is actually any good or not. From what I’ve seen on the Internet, some people love it, while some people hate it. Typical for the Internet where most information comes only from anecdotal evidence, which is simply word of mouth with no test data to support anything said.
In the end, it is almost certain that I could never get a single quart from them to test. And even if I did, it would not represent what others would get from them, because they blend each oil for individual people. So, each motor oil order is different than the next one.
Hi Rat, Question on spark plugs. I currently am using Autolite spark plugs for my street Nova. Engine makes 375 horsepower. What spark plugs do you like? I have used NGK, AC also. Have you tested any brands against each other and quality components too? Please let me know Rat, thanks Rally.
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Hi again,
I have not made a back to back spark plug comparison. But, I decided to use Autolite spark plugs in my 800 HP, 540 cubic inch, Big Block Chevy engine.
As long as you are using an appropriate heat range and an appropriate gap, it is unlikely that you will notice much difference between different major spark plug brands in a 375 HP small block Chevy street engine.
Thank you for the info. I agree what you said and it makes a ton of sense. Full competition is a different animal compared to street car version. Thanks Rat.
Hey I have good bit of your blog lots to read. I am a level machinery lube tech and certified through noria.
But my job consists of hydraulic oils not automotive situations. But I do mess with cars a lot.
In my situation I’m running an ls1 with a high volume oil pump and it’s a drift car. I currently have always ran Mobil 1 0w-40 FS. But have considered running a lower viscosity to promote drain back speed. If I was to try the 0w-20 amsoil sig series that rates realy good on your list. What would be a considered sufficient oil pressure hot. At idle and at let’s say 6000 rpm as of now I maintain around 50 at idle and well 80 or so at redline. Possibly a little higher. I Don’t watch it while drifting. Either way I will be switching to amsoil 5w-30 if switching to 0w-20 isn’t recommended.
Second. I read your part on compression ratio and understand it. But I’m somewhat confused on the fact that even though calculated dcr is lower the actual dcr while in operation let’s say at its highest volumetric efficiency point through the rpm range and peak torque area wouldn’t that still lower the knock threshold due to its actually having more air to compress and still create more heat than if the high dcr cam that was less efficient there making less power. I’m trying to say if the stock cam was making less power it’s because it had less air to work with. If the bigger cam makes more power it had more air to work with but that would to me think the knock threshold would be worse due to more heat and more combustion which is why the power was gained. So I guess I’m trying to ask knock threshold is much more complicated than just knowing dcr isn’t it. Obviously fuel etc is another variable but im talking about just when talking compression ratio affects to knock.
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Hi there,
You have more oil pressure than you need right now with the 0W40, if you are talking about normal “HOT” operating temperature oil pressure.
5W30 will serve you much better. 0W20 is too thin for any kind of performance car, especially if it is driven aggressively.
For a race car/performance car, the ideal “HOT” oil pressure is at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm. For example, at least 50 psi at 5,000 rpm.
Static compression ratio (SCR) and Dynamic compression ratio (DCR) are set in stone you might say, once an engine is assembled. And they will not change unless the engine build specs are changed at some point.
The lower the DCR, the less likely the engine will be to ping/knock. But, of course how aggressive the engine is built overall, how much ignition advance you are running, how much quench clearance you are running, how hot the engine is running, what air/fuel ratio you are running, what octane you are running, and how much boost pressure you are running, if any, are all additional factors as to how sensitive an engine will be pinging/knocking.
Hi 540, my son had 2006 ford taurus, i used, 10w40,10w30, 5w30 and
when he took it, he ran 5w20 oilzum, he had to replace the catalytic converter, he gave it to his cousin, it died with with 320,000 miles on it! Oilzum does have high zinc and phosphorus. Do you think that caused it
to die?
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Hi Bob,
Telling me “it died” gives me virtually nothing to go on. I guess you mean the engine and not just the replacement catalytic converter? You were not clear.
Did the engine seize up/lockup? Did it run out of oil? Did it simply wear out after 320,000 miles? Did it spew tons of smoke? Did it make bad mechanical noise just before stopping? Did something break inside the engine? Was the old engine all sludged-up inside, which could have contributed to the outcome? Does it need a valve job? What are the leakdown test or compression test numbers? Did the electrics fail? Does it have spark? Did you check for any computer message?
There are many reasons an engine can stop running. But, with 320,000 miles on it, it had a good long life, much like a 100 year old person. So, it is hard to complain about how long it lasted. How long did you expect it to last? I’d say you got your money’s worth out of it.
High zinc and high phosphorus motor oil should never be used with catalytic converters. That should be common knowledge.
I have never tested Oilzum motor oil, so I can’t say how good it may or may not be. But, it is not a brand I would choose, since its capability is unknown.
However, if the car was just an ordinary daily driver/commuter, it is unlikely that the Oilzum motor oil damaged the engine itself. Because for an ordinary daily driver/commuter, the motor oil chosen is not that critical, since the engine will not be highly stressed like in a High Performance or Racing vehicle. Therefore, a daily driver/commuter can typically get by well enough on low performing motor oil.
Sorry about that, they never told me what happened, I use oilzum and valvoline regular oil, not synthetic, and switch back and forth between my cars. Thank You For Your Blog.
Hi, as an engineer I’d like to thank you for all your effort testing and communicating facts and helping us novices see behind all the old men’s tales and advertising deceptions with oil. I’m researching oils for use in a Yamaha 150 hp outboard motor in saltwater. I plan to use your ranking list, but have a question about one of your articles on diesel oils when it talks about zinc levels. You say that zinc doesn’t form a sludge or film, but is sacrificial and can run out. But you also say too much zinc can cause excessive wear. So in a marine application where the motor can sit unused for months at a time, then is used less than 100 hours a season between oil changes, should low zinc oil be fine? Zinc anodes on outboards are of course critical to prevent corrosion in saltwater, but I’m thinking that doesn’t apply as much to oils unless I had a leak somewhere.
With the relatively low hours between oil changes, and I over-thinking this and wasting money by getting a high-ranked synthetic? What would you recommend? From what I’ve read, a good synthetic may help a motor failure from causing more damage.
Also, I didn’t see you rank any of West Marine’s synthetic oil. Is there any way to tell what oil type it’s closest to? Marine companies and outboard makers all talk about special additives they put into their oil for marine use, but it sounds like that’s just a sales pitch and any of the high-ranked 5w-30 or 10w-30s may be better. Thanks for any advice!
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Hi there,
You are in luck, because I am in the process of testing a half a dozen Marine 4-Stroke engine motor oils, and then comparing them to some of the better Automotive motor oils.
This is for an upcoming Tech Article on Marine oils that I have “In-Work”. Since the test in not complete, I don’t have any wear protection capability psi values yet from the Marine oils.
But, I will share in advance of posting the new Tech Article, that another part of that test is complete, which is just as important to know when considering using Automotive motor oil in Marine applications. Let’s call it a sneak peak at the new Tech Article.
What I’m referring to is the topic of rust and corrosion inhibitors in Marine oils vs rust and corrosion inhibitors in Automotive oils. Those are the additives Marine oils brag about having. And in their advertising, they don’t come right out and say it, but the imply that only Marine oils contain those rust and corrosion additives. So, anyone reading their advertising, would get the idea that they would be required to use only Marine oils in Marine applications.
I sent a few of the Marine oil samples into a Motor oil Lab for component quantity testing, which I do not perform myself. I test personally test for wear protection capability psi values.
The results were that Marine oils do contain rust and corrosion inhibitors, just as they claim. However, when compared to some of the better Automotive oils, which no one else has ever done before, it turns out that the Automotive oils actually have more rust and corrosion inhibitors than Marine oils.
That is HUGE breaking news for boat owners. Because now they know that they are NOT limited to only using Marine oils in their 4-Stroke boat engines. They now know it is perfectly safe to use Automotive motor oils as well.
The only thing to determine now, is how well the Marine oils can provide wear protection compared to Automotive motor oils. But, because of my very busy schedule, it will probably be a few more months before I get a chance to perform that part of the testing. So, stay tuned for that when I post the completed Tech Article.
Another thing that was clear from the Marine component quantity Lab Test, was that the low zinc level in current Marine certified motor oils, is on par with the low zinc levels in current Automotive motor oils. So, zinc level is not even a consideration.
At this point, I can recommend using a couple of my top ranked Automotive motor oils in Marine applications. Those oils are 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series synthetic, and 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability synthetic.
Their 5W cold viscosity rating is also superior to the 10W30 viscosity Marine motor oils. Because the 5W motor oils will flow quicker through an engine on cold start-up which is highly desirable for boat engines that have been sitting for a long time.
That’s awesome, thanks for getting samples analyzed to compare marine and automotive oils! I look forward to your wear protection results. One other question, I’ve read in some forums that since synthetics are more slippery, they don’t cling as well to surfaces and drain away more completely when a motor sits for extended periods. This results in a closer to dry condition for the first few seconds after startup. Have you done testing or do you have thoughts on the thicknesses of surface films that different oils leave and how long they persist? If an oil gave me less protection during normal running conditions, but stuck to the walls with a thicker layer and for longer, might that be a better choice to avoid wear in the first few seconds after a cold start?
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Hi again,
You need to understand that Internet Forums are chock full of incompetent and unqualified people who have no idea what they are talking about. They spew nothing but garbage, with absolutely nothing to back-up anything they say. Forums are truly the worst places to go for information. They are the reason I started my Blog in the first place. So that gear heads would have a place to go for the truth that is actually backed-up by hard Engineering Test Data.
The people on Forums are not Engineers, and they only go on theory, opinion, guessing, hearsay, speculation, assumption and emotion. But, they have no test data at all, so they have no proof of anything. They just make stuff up, and it gets repeated over and over by people who were gullible enough to believe what they say. Their bad information is WORSE than no information at all. You should do yourself a favor and stop going to Forums. But, you can always come to my Blog for the FACTS that cannot be found anywhere else.
Ignore what those Forum people have said about slipperiness. Because synthetic oils are NOT more slippery than conventional oils. The base oil has nothing to do with so-called slipperiness. Slipperiness is just a non-technical reference to the level of friction reducers in a motor oils proprietary additive package.
Those proprietary additive packages vary widely from product line to product line, and from brand to brand. But, those variations are not based on the oil being conventional or synthetic.
Synthetics are as a whole, superior motor oils, primarily because they typically can withstand higher oil temps, flow better at cold temps, and don’t require viscosity improvers, compared to conventional motor oils. And since they generate such large sales volume, and generate the most profits, they typically have the most money spent on their formulation development and production.
Slipperiness/friction reduction is not the same as the ability to cling to surfaces. The same way slipperiness/friction reduction is not the same as wear protection capability.
In general, viscosity has the biggest effect on drain off. For example, watery thin 0W16 motor oil now used in some Toyota’s will drain off more readily than much thicker 20W50 motor oil. Remember, oil starts draining off when an engine is shut down, when it is typically hot, so the oil will be at its thinnest.
Depending on the specific engine design, and its horizontal or vertical orientation, oil drain off can vary aside from the oils viscosity. Some engines can hold oil in place better than others, but a lot of oil is entrapped by most engines. And most oil filters have an anti-drain back valve feature, which keeps oil passages mostly full of oil. And inside an engine is not an open air condition, so general drying out is not typically a huge concern.
Several years ago I did a room temperature observational, though not specifically a data gathering, drain off test outside of an engine, for convenient inspection and monitoring, just to see what I could determine. I suspended two steel pipes above a drain pan, and poured 5W30 synthetic Royal Purple over one, and 5W30 synthetic Castrol over the other. Then I observed them over roughly 6 months or so. At the end of that time, neither oil had completely drained off and disappeared. Their oil films had become very thin, but they were still visible with a slight shine on the steel pipes. This observational test was not an inside an engine test, and no hard data was gathered. But, it did show that synthetic oils do not just run off and disappear like those Forums wrongly claim. And this open air test would be considered a worst case test, compared to a closed up engine.
At the end of the day, you really have two reasonable choices, if you are concerned about oiling in marine engines that sit a long time. Use a low cold viscosity rated, quick cold flowing synthetic oil such as 5W30. Or you could remove the spark plugs and spin a marine engine over with the starter for say 10 seconds or so, to build some oil pressure and start the oil flowing “before” actually starting the engine.
Hi 540, love this blog, i use 5w30 oilzum with a pour point of – 50*C, does that mean the tested valvoline premium 5w30 at number 88 is better?
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Hi Bob,
I’m glad to see you love my Blog.
The most important thing a motor oil does, is prevent engine wear. Everything else it does, comes after that, and is in background support of preventing wear.
So, determining which oil is better comes down to the psi value a motor oil can produce during my Engineering Torture Test, which determines its wear protection capability. The higher the psi value, the better the oil is at preventing wear. That is how we determine which oil is better than another. And you can easily see that in my Wear Protection Ranking List.
Pour point is not a critical motor oil property unless you live where it is say -25*F (-32*C) or colder. The vast majority of people don’t live where it is that cold or colder. So, in general, pour point is not a determining factor for which motor oil is best.
Hey 540 Rat, I just wanted to tell you that I have a 2019 Dodge Challenger 1320 with less than 10,000 miles on it that requires the 0w-40 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. After reviewing your testing, I knew I had to get that stuff out of there.
I went with 5W-30 AMSOIL Signature Series oil. After I changed it and cranked the engine up, I noticed that the ticking that was in the valvetrain is now gone. Even when the engine is up to normal operating temperature, the tick is gone. The AMSOIL is really good stuff, and I’m an AMSOIL dealer, so that helps me out a bunch on the cost of it. And yes, my receipts reflect that I use the Pennzoil 0w-40 Ultra Platinum.
I also wanted to tell you I put the Quaker State 5w-30 Ultimate Durability API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 synthetic oil in my 2006 Chevy Colorado with 320,000 miles on it. I swapped it over from MOBIL 1 5w-30 API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 synthetic. The engine runs noticeably quieter with the Quaker State in it at normal operating temperature.
I’m also running the Quaker State 5w-30 Ultimate Durability API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 in my wife’s Yukon, plus two other race cars I have. One is a 7000 rpm bracket car with a 434 ci small block, and the other is a 9000 rpm SB2.2 heads up small tire car. I can’t wait to tear into those things come freshening up time to check for wear and cleanliness.
I know it looks bad that I run the Quaker State over the AMSOIL in most of my equipment since I’m an AMSOIL dealer, but price and the fact that the Quaker State has almost the wear protection of the AMSOIL are the determining factors in that.
Anyways, keep your blog coming because you’re the only one out here putting out the truth, as determined by my real world experiences up above.
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Hi Patrick,
I’m glad to see that your engines are doing so well with two of the highest ranked motor oils from my Wear Protection Ranking List. And that is excellent real world proof that High Performance Challengers do not need 0W40 motor oil. Thanks for sharing your experience.
It is nice to get some additional feedback on how well things are working out with motor oils that have performed extremely well in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. I’ve had the same excellent results with 5W30 QSUD.
Now, I have a question for you. Could you please double check your 5W30 QSUD bottles to confirm if they say API SP, or if they say API SN Plus. I have not been able to find the API SP version in stores or online yet. And Quaker State was supposed to have changed the name from “Ultimate Durability” to simply “Full Synthetic”, on the new API SP version. So, I’m wondering if they came to their senses and decided to stay with the awesome “Ultimate Durability” name after all.
And one last question, where did you find that motor oil?
I saw your question to Patrick asking about whether the new Quaker State 5W-30 Ultimate Durability oil has changed its name and API rating. I noticed on the Walmart website that they are now selling the new version which has removed the “Ultimate Durability” and just says “Full Synthetic”. Also the API designation of this new oil is “SP”. I see pictures of front and back of the 5 quart jug that shows these changes.
Doug
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Hi Doug,
Thanks for the update. I’ll see if I can get it locally this weekend. If not, l’ll order it.
Take care,
540 RAT
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Here’s a follow-up to my response immediately above.
I checked out Walmart in-person as well as online, and the new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic”, API SP version, was only available in the 5 quart jug. But, I only need/use a single quart bottle for my Engineering Test. So, the wait continues.
Yessir, that’s right. I could only find 5w-30 Quaker State Full Synthetic in the five quart jugs also.
I bought two jugs of it a couple of months ago, and it was API SN Plus. About a month later, I bought five more jugs of it, and it was API SP.
If you give me a mailing address, I’ll ship a five quart jug of the 5w-30 Quaker State Synthetic API SP for testing.
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Hi Patrick,
Thanks for the offer, I appreciate that. But, I finally found the SP version yesterday at the local Walmart in the 5 quart jugs.
I only need/use a 1 quart bottle for testing. And I originally wanted to see how the SP version performs in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil, before I start stocking up on any. So, I was going to hold off until I could get a single quart.
But, after giving it some more thought, I decided to go ahead and get the 5 quart jug after all. And if it does not test as well as it did before, I would not use it in my High Performance vehicles, but I could still use it in my daily driver vehicles.
Now the only problem is finding enough time in my very busy schedule to test all the oils I now have on hand waiting to be tested. I have 6 Marine oils and now 5 API SP oils. All lined up to provide test data for two new upcoming Tech Aricles.
No sir, thank you for all of your testing, not only of the oil, but of the filters, and the great tech information on H-beams versus I-beams, the rod bolts, plus the cam beak-in nonsense. Lots and lots of great information in this blog!
Hello and thank you for all the great info you supply Sir.
Would you use a 5W-30 in place of the 10W-50 Motorex that KTM recommends in a 510cc water cooled thumper with a shared gearbox?
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Hi Dion,
I’m glad to see you consider that my Blog supplies great info.
In general, water cooled engines have no business using overly thick XW50 motor oil. Oil that thick should generally be used only in air cooled engines that cannot control their oil temperatures very well, especially when run hard in hot weather. So, the oil will become much thinner as it gets hotter and hotter. And starting out with a thick oil, prevents it from becoming dangerously thin when extremely hot.
I researched the specific details of your engine on the Internet, which tries to jump around a lot. So, sometimes it gives you information for something you did NOT ask for, without being clear that it changed on you.
But, as far as I could determine, it appears that your engine’s crankshaft uses plain bearings on the big end with high pressure oiling, which is excellent. So, in that case 5W30 would be fine if the engine still made acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with the thinner 5W30.
However, your crankshaft’s rod bearing is apparently a roller bearing instead of a plain bearing. And those type of bearings are typically low pressure oiled.
If all that is correct, you have what you might call a hybrid bearing engine. Traditionally, most engines have used either one type of bearing or the other. But, a combination of the two is somewhat of an odd-ball mixture.
So, if your engine engine is truly a hybrid bearing engine, then it is NOT the best candidate for switching to the thinner 5W30. Because I don’t have any data on using thinner 5W30 oil in roller bearing applications, since most roller bearing engines are air cooled engines that need thicker oil.
It might well be that your engine would be just fine with 5W30, but you would be stepping outside of my database and outside of your Factory’s testing/development.
If it were my own bike, I would probably try the 5W30, in the name of my own additional data gathering. But, I’m not prepared to recommend doing that to one of my Blog readers, since there is some question about doing it.
If you want to play it safe, the best plan is to probably stay with the factory’s viscosity recommendation.
I would firstly like to thank you for all the info on this blog. I have switched all the oil is use in my vehicles and my atv/dirt bikes because of it. Along with that, I have noticed less fine metal shavings in my atv oil filters after switching to 0W40 Mobil 1 oil and have had no problems with my clutches slipping.
Since there is very little information on 2 stroke premix oil, I would like to know if you’d be willing to test some to find their wear properties? I would also be curious to know how mixing with gas would affect the wear properties? (32:1 is a pretty common ratio)
I can find the viscosity, viscosity index, flash point, and what group of oil they are made from but no info on the wear protection. Since your blog shows that viscosity doesn’t have a direct affect on wear protection, it worries me that im not using the best oil I could be in my engines. Especially considered the extreme applications of a 2 stroke performance engine and the oil being diluted with gas, it would be very helpful to know good oils to use to increase top and bottom end life.
The oils that I would be interesting are Klotz Super Techniplate, Klotz R50, Maxima 927, Maxima Super M, Yamalube 2R, Kawaski Performance 2-Stroke Racing Oil, Motorex Cross Power Synthetic 2T 2-Stroke, Motul 800 Ester Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil, Golden Spectro Pre-Mix, Red Line 2-Stroke Racing Oil, and Bel-Ray MC-1 Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil. These seem to be some of the most popular.
I realize that this would be for a very niche market, but it would be extremely helpful to me and my friends. I would also be more then willing to pass the information around all the 2 stroke facebook and forum pages im part of.
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Hi Cole,
I’m glad to see that you’ve made good use of, and have had great success with my Blog’s information.
Your question about testing 2-stroke pre-mix has come up before. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable and safe test to perform that would realistically predict how two stroke pre-mix oil will perform in a running engine. That is why you cannot find any test data on that topic.
The Engineering Test Torture Test I perform on 4-stroke motor oil, is a friction test under load, to determine an oil’s load carrying capability failure point. Doing that test with a 32:1 fuel to oil ratio would be asking for a disastrous fire.
On top of that, there is way too much variation in any pre-mix ratio’s capability, due to an extremely wide variation in the different fuels that could be mixed with the oil, all of which could affect the results.
If you are interested in 2-stroke engine wear reduction and longevity, look no further than the pre-mix ratio itself. There used to be a huge debate about 20:1 vs 32:1 pre-mix ratio’s. But, the facts have never changed. 20:1 has clearly shown to provide the BEST real world wear protection capability, compared to the money saving 32:1, no matter what the 32:1 crowd may claim.
And I can tell you from my own first hand experience, that using 20:1 does NOT create a spark plug fouling condition as long as you are mindful that a 2-stroke is NOT a 4-stroke. Meaning that you don’t let a 2-stroke idle much, and that you don’t just putt around slow and easy like Granny would if she were riding it. If that is a rider’s style, then they should be riding a 4-stroke.
2-strokes are awesome High Performance engines, and should be operated as such.
Bottom Line: Those who know what they are doing, and want to provide their engines with the best possible wear protection, use the ideal 20:1 pre-mix ratio in their 2-strokes. Those who use the less than ideal 32:1, which is just barely enough oil, can expect increased engine wear.
In addition to being the ideal pre-mix ratio, 20:1 is also easy and convenient to mix, because it does not require any measuring. Here’s why: 4 quarts = 1 gallon. So, 5 gallons = 20 quarts. That means if your pour a 1 quart bottle of 2-stroke oil into an empty 5 gallon jug, then fill it with premium fuel, you have your 20:1 pre-mix ratio without ever having measured anything. With both the oil and fuel in the jug, you’ll end up with 5 1/4 gallons in the jug. Most 5 gallon jugs can accommodate a bit over 5 gallons. So, however it works out with your jug, it is close enough. That’s as easy as it gets.
And yes, High Performance 2-stroke engines should always use premium fuel. They are subject to pinging/detonation with insufficient fuel octane, the same as a High Performance 4-stroke engine. And of course pinging/detonation can and will destroy your engine.
I’ve seen many 2-stroke engines with a catastrophic hole burned through the top of its piston from pinging/detonation, particularly back in the day when the carburetor was jetted with an air:fuel ratio was too lean. And today in most areas, the fuel is the worst it’s ever been. And even with today’s fuel injection, it is in your best interest to use premium fuel.
Wrap your head around this. If you have a 4-stroke dirt bike with a typical roller bearing engine, it is lubricated by 100% motor oil that is not intentionally diluted with anything.
But, if you have a 2-stroke dirt bike running 20:1 pre-mix, with 1 quart of oil diluted with 20 quarts (5 gallons) of fuel, you are lubricating your roller bearing engine’s moving components with only about 5% oil. That’s a little breathtaking. And truly amazing how well that works.
If you are running 32:1, then you are lubricating your engine with ONLY 3% oil. And 3% oil is a staggering 40% LESS oil than 5%. Think about that the next time someone tries to convince you that 32:1 pre-mix is best.
540 Rat,
First let me begin by thanking you for your dedication and contributions to the field of mechanical engineering.
I just have a few questions regarding motor oil.
My ’03 awd 4.6 Mountaineer with 107,000 is currently running qsud 5w20. Somehow I seem to average around 18 to 19 mpg with mixed highway and city driving up here in the Sierra at 6300 ft. Not much noise at start up except sometimes when it drops into the teens in the winter mornings. Very little oil consumption between changes at 3 to 5k. Wondering if a change to 5w30 is recommended. I asked my Ford tech and he told me not to, so that I would avoid potentially damaging the engine.
In your q and a section from a few yeas ago you said that you stuck with 5w20 in your vehicles that called for it, but in the more recent posts you mention that 5w30 is a much better oil for protection and performance, and that you have switched your vehicles from 5w20 to 5w30.
My other two vehicles are motorcycles: an ’09 husky te510 with 6,200 mi, which calls for 10w60; and a 2016 Kawasaki ninja 1000 with over 20,000 mi, calling for 10w40.
Would it be safe to switch to 10w50 for both bikes, or should I stick with the recommended viscosities I have always used? I know you say to avoid motorcycle oil but I am very hard on the bikes, they have higher mileage and still shift like butter and are extremely fast. I change the oil in the dirt bike every 16hrs or about 250 miles.
I change the oil in my street bike about once a year or every 3k, whichever comes first. I want the oil that can protect and perform best, especially since both bikes are wet clutch, high performance machines. I do not intend to sell either of these bikes and honestly want to keep them for as long as I can.
I only use full synthetic: Motul 7100 10w60 in the Husky, and castrol power 1 10w40 in the Kawi. I am strongly considering using motul 7100 in both bikes. Due to its full ester technology, the success I have had with it in my 500, and the competitive price point. My dirt bike is fully tuned and has no cat, while the street bike is mostly stock with a titanium dual akrapovic muffler.
Thanks for all the great research and professional advice.
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Hi there,
Unfortunately, your Ford Tech is like countless others who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to motor oil. Because 5W20 is only called for to maybe, ever so slightly, improve gas mileage. All that is/was in support of Auto Makers’ C. A. F. E. numbers, but it does not benefit the engine in any way. And almost no one can ever measure any gas mileage improvement between 5W20 and 5W30. That whole thing is/was a Corporate Marketing decision, NOT an Engineering decision.
The way you can potentially avoid engine damage is to switch to 5W30 QSUD or other highly ranked oils which provide better engine protection. 5W30 is the optimum viscosity for most water cooled Automotive engines.
And yes, I switched all of my own 5W20 vehicles over to 5W30 a few years ago, after the superiority of 5W30 became clear. And I have recommended that switch to my Blog readers ever since.
With your Husky being a roller bearing engine, according to what I could find out about it from an online search, it is probably best to stay with a thicker oil, even though it is water cooled. And most good quality XW50 or XW60 oils should work well enough in it. Though XW50 is a much better choice. Because XW60 is simply too thick.
And yes, so-called Motorcycle motor oils are typically very poor performers, no matter what technology they claim. So, I do NOT recommend using them. Since you are very hard on your bikes, you should definitely be using far superior High Performance Automotive motor oils in your bikes.
As for your Ninja, I do NOT recommend using poor performing and insanely thick 10W60 motorcycle oil in that High Performance plain bearing engine. I suggest you read my Section 2 on Viscosity Selection for the numerous reasons why thinner oil is far superior.
So, I recommend using far superior High Performance Automotive oils such as 5W30 QSUD, or 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil in your Ninja. I’ve had a lot of good feedback from bike rider Blog readers and from elsewhere, who are very happy with these 5W30 oils in their bikes.
A while back I had wrote to you about my boat engine. It has a Volvo drive coupled to a GM 5.0 block, 2005 vintage. I am ordering Amsoil sig series 5W30 which I believe you recommended for this lake water cooled small block V8. I may have left out 1 important piece of info. The thermostat in this engine is rated at 165F. So, sucking in cold lake water, my temp gauge reads a constant 170F.
I now know (from your blog) that the 5W oil will pump faster at cold start temps, but, will I see any drop in oil pressure using the 5W30 vs the 10W40 they recommend at operating temp? In a car, i wouldn’t give it a second thought, but we have extended running times at 3500-4500 rpm’s. Ambient air temps are 100-115 degrees at the Colorado river.
Again, from info I have learned from you, I cannot understand why Volvo and Merc recommend 10W40 in their GM engine packages. Even with Amsoil, if you want to pay a little more for bona-fied marine oil, their offerings is in either 10W-30 or 10W40.
Just wanted to ask before I hit the “confirm order” button.
Thanks again!
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Hi again Steve,
With 115*F ambient air temperature in Lake Havasu, the water temp is typically around 85*F to 90*F or so. That is not cold for lake water temperatures in general, though it would still be relatively cold to your engine.
A 165*F thermostat is ideal for High Performance engines. And running with 170*F coolant temperature is also ideal. The engine doesn’t know or care if it is in a car or in a boat.
Oil sump temperature in an engine being run like yours, is typically around 50*F or so hotter than the coolant temperature. That would put your oil sump temp at around 220*F or so, which is excellent. That is on par with all the boat engine oil temp data I have. The ideal oil temp range is 215*F to 250*F. So, your setup is working just fine.
Different viscosities will typically show a difference in oil pressure. So, yes you will probably see some reduction in oil pressure when switching from 10W40 to 5W30. But, depending on your engine’s bearing clearances and oiling system’s capability, it will likely still be fine. But of course, you should verify it’s hot normal operating temperature oil pressure.
The old rule of thumb recommended “HOT” normal operating temperature oil pressure for High Performance and Racing engines, is “at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm”. For example, you would ideally like to see at least 45 psi when you are running at 4,500 rpm. But, that recommendation is not engraved in stone, it is a general guideline. So, even if you are a little off, but in that approximate area, you are fine.
Most people automatically tend to think that big Companies are All-Knowing and always correct. But, that is simply NOT true. At the end of the day, they are run by people. And people are not all-knowing and not always correct. They are often off-track and often make wrong decisions.
So, the fact that Volvo and Merc recommend thicker than ideal 10W40 rather than the ideal 5W30, proves they don’t understand motor oil as well as most people would expect. And one company may well have copied the other. Therefore, it is quite possible that the whole thing came down to one person with the authority to make that recommendation.
And it is very common for people who don’t know what they are talking about, to “falsely” believe that thicker oil provides better wear protection. But, Engineering Tests have proven over and over again, that the oil’s proprietary factory additive package, which includes the extreme pressure anti-wear components, is what actually determine its wear protection capability, NOT viscosity. So, completely ignore Volvo and GM, because they cannot be trusted when it comes to motor oil.
It is completely insane that so-called Marine oils start out with 10WX viscosities, and go thicker from there. Since boats sit a lot of the time, they can greatly benefit from the quicker flow of 5W30 motor oil at cold start-up.
And along those lines, I have a Marine Oil Tech Article in-work, where I compare 6 different Marine oils with some of the top ranked Automotive oils, which has never been done before. I have not yet tested the wear protection capability of those Marine oils. But, I have compared Auto vs Marine oil component quantities, to see how they compare regarding rust and corrosion inhibitors, which Marine oils always brag about.
And I can reveal now, in advance of posting the new Tech Article, that the Automotive oils actually have MORE rust and corrosion prevention capability than Marine oils. That means automotive oils will protect you boat engine from rust and corrosion BETTER than so-called boat oil.
So to conclude, I suggest you do hit the “confirm order” button on the 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil. It is one of the very best motor oils on the market. And if cost is a factor, 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability is a very close second choice with much better pricing, especially at Walmart.
Your information is incredible, so much so I would gladding pay you for your time and energy. I can’t put it down however it is long so l might have missed this. I have a 20 year on rebuild 428 cobra replica maybe 450 hp and an oil cooler, I no you don’t like mixing any additives, it holds 6 quarts oil, how would you feel about using 5 qt 5w30 Quaker state ULD and 1 qt of 5w30 valvoline max life high mileage for the seal enhancer? Thank you for your time and dedication. Gene
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Hi Gene,
Thanks for the kind words. No payment is necessary.
You are correct, I’m not a fan of mixing different motor oils. Maybe it would be acceptable if you really had your heart set on mixing two different viscosities of the same exact motor oil product line, such as two different viscosities of QSUD.
But, mixing two different brands of motor oil creates a witches brew motor oil that will mess up the carefully balanced, proprietary factory additive package that each oil started with. It would not be the end of the world if you did that, but I don’t recommend it.
Plus, with only one quart of High Mileage motor oil, you wouldn’t have enough seal swell chemical to be of much value. If you really need High Mileage motor oil, you should use 6 quarts of High Mileage motor oil.
And just so you know, synthetic motor oils are more prone to leakage than conventional motor oils, especially in older engines. So, synthetic High Mileage oils are prone to leakage, while at the same time trying to reduce leakage. So, they are fighting themselves right from the start, and are often not all that effective at reducing oil leakage. They are really more of a Marketing gimmick than anything else. But, you could give it a try and see how it works out for you.
Conventional High Mileage oils are much better at reducing oil leakage. But, those oils did not really produce high enough psi values in my Engineering Torture Test on motor, for use in a High Performance engines.
So, if you try the 5W30 Valvoline Max Life High Mileage oil and it doesn’t reduce oil leakage much, then I’d just use 6 quarts of the excellent performing 5W30 QSUD, and keep an eye on the oil level. I suspect that you don’t put that many miles on the car anyway. Therefore, that shouldn’t really much of a problem.
Since just about everyone who reads your blog is an enthusiast, all of us own antiques, classics, hot rods or sports cars which sit in garages for a couple of weeks or more between usages. Regarding the protective oil film, if it doesn’t flow, run or drip, then drying would be the only thing that would cause it to deteriorate. Do you have any info on how long the film might last on internal engine parts? Currently, I disconnect the coil wire at the distributor cap and crank the starter for 20 to 25 seconds before starting my car. If I don’t do that, it will tap quite loudly for about 5 seconds, and I know that significant wear is happening. But if I knew of a particular oil that provided a film that lasted longer, it might influence my buying decision. I’ll probably continue to get oil flowing using the lower rpm of the starter regardless of which oil I use but it would be interesting to know. I am also an engineer and appreciate your analysis and information. Thanks for all the hard work!
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Hi Larry,
That 5 seconds of tapping noise is what is often heard when hydraulic lifters have bled out their oil after sitting for a significant period of time. This is typical in older traditional engines when they are using synthetic motor oil. But, that noise is from temporary extra loose resulting valve lash, which would not actually be causing worrisome wear, even it is very troubling to hear.
I don’t have any hard data on how long motor oil lasts on internal engine parts. And that kind of data isn’t easy to gather. Because an enclosed engine doesn’t conveniently lend itself to obtaining that kind of data. And some internal components have oil trapped in place more than other components do. So, it would be difficult to come up with meaningful data overall that could somehow be measured and compared. That is why you won’t find any data on that topic.
What you are doing before actually starting the engine, is a good idea for engines that have been sitting for significant period of time. And to make the most of your procedure, a synthetic 5WXX motor oil would provide the best cold flow to get oil to all engine components the quickest.
And it is best to start out with highly ranked motor oils from my Wear Protection Ranking List, which have the highest film strength to begin with. The oils I recommend most are 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil, and 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability oil.
Good Afternoon,
First I want to thank you for the impressive work and testing you have done, I definitely had my share of different oils trial and erros before i stumbled upom your blog there is a gentleman from Poland on youtube by PiotrTester who has done some testing on different oils but nothing in comparsion to yours. So ive been using quaker state ultimate durability 5w30 apn plus for over a year now, but I just found out none of the walmarts have it anymore instead there is a quaker state full synthetic same dexos gen 2 but no apn plus , when I called quaker state they said that ultimate durability has been replaced by Full Synthetic, Please let us know if this is the same oil as Im afraid the oil formulation has changed. Thanks for all you dedication!
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Hi there,
Yes, Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” API SN Plus, has technically been replaced by the new Quaker State “Full Synthetic” API SP, which is a different formulation.
But, depending on where you are located, there may be plenty of the older version still on Auto Parts Store shelves. The Walmart near me only has the new version, while a Pep Boys near me has a truck load of only the old version.
I will be testing the new “Full Synthetic” API SP version very soon, so that we will know how it compares to the older “Ultimate Durability” that was such an excellent version. I’m on the edge of my seat like everyone else to find out if the new version is as good as the old version.
I already have the new version to test. And I almost tested it last weekend, but I was just too busy to get to it. Perhaps I can test it this coming weekend. TBD…
We can’t thank you enough for all you do… but we are like you waiting for the big test,, I sure hope they didn’t mess it up, I am sitting on 4 to 5 bottles of the old stuff, and even if the new stuff is as good or better, the old stuff is still plenty good. Thanks very much.
Good evening, I had a question about what happened to the old title holder as #1 the Quaker state with oil extreme additive. I used it once before going with Trybodine and had Blackstone test both Trybodine preformed better. And I’ve noticed the ones u have listed using oil extreme have hurt performance. Was the initial data wrong as it seems to hurt not help.
Love your stuff I’m OCD about my oil. I’m 56 and have been since I was young. Bobistheoilguy.com is where I learned the most. But your amazing! Also the last message about scat pack and Dodge I have same but a Charger I’ve used 5/30 based on your info👍 I do use SRT oil filter. Also do have any reconditions for a good tranny fluid (changed the factory fill to Maxlife and Lubegaurd platnuim used their stuff for years with excellent results) jury is out on the Maxlife my tranny seems to run hot if I push it over 200 and the Maxlife has 203 top temp breakdown. and diff fluid. Thinking of using Trybodine in rear diff it coats gears really well in videos I’ve seen.
Keep it up. 🙏
John
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Hi John,
My Engineering Test Data has never been wrong. It comes from the Science of Physics and Chemistry involved in the testing. No one can argue with Science. And Engineering Test Data drives the world. So, my Test Data on motor oil is the real deal, which cannot be disputed. Therefore, the data in my Blog is the best and most useful information on that topic you will find anywhere. And the reason I started my Blog in the first place, was so that gear heads would have some place to go for the TRUTH about motor oil. Because Internet Forums are full of nothing but worthless garbage.
So, I’m not exactly sure what you are talking/asking about. When I post a motor oil’s psi data, that psi data never changes for that particular oil. The only way a number might “appear” to change, is when I test a newer version of a particular oil. But, that is a “different” oil from the first one, which I always make perfectly clear. There is nothing confusing about that. Over time, most motor oils will be updated with a revised formulation. So, they must be retested, if the newer version’s performance is to be added to my Wear Protection Ranking List.
And as additional motor oils are tested and added to my Wear Protection Ranking List, the ranking positions of various oils will change, depending on how all the psi values stack-up. The highest psi value is rated number 1, and the lowest psi value is rated last. That is all very straight forward.
If you reread my Blog carefully, you will see that the Oil Extreme additive typically helped lower performing oils, but typically hurt higher performing oils. All oils I tested with the Oil Extreme additive are still on my list, with the same psi value they were posted with. Nothing has changed except ranking positions which change every time another motor oil is added to the list.
And those tests were performed because of requests I had received. They are intended for informational purposes only. And I have made it very clear in multiple places in my Blog, that I do NOT recommend using any aftermarket additives at all. Because they ruin an oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, making the oil WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for wear protection capability. If you select a high ranking motor oil from my Wear Protection Ranking List, it will NOT need any help.
Just so you are clear, Blackstone Lab does NOT test motor oil “performance”. They test motor oil “component quantities”. Those are two completely different things. And component quantities do NOT predict performance.
I am the one who performs motor oil Engineering Performance Testing, so that we can find out how various motor oils truly perform.
And just so you know, Bobistheoilguy Forum is chock full of unqualified people who have no idea what they are talking about. They spew nothing but WRONG information. That is one of the absolute WORST places to go if you want to learn correct information about motor oil.
The people on that Forum believe and repeat over and over again, nothing but myths, old wive’s tales, opinions, theories, and guesses. They have no data to back-up anything they say. Their “bad” information has caused a number of engine failures that drove people to my Blog in search of help, because following what that Forum said was a complete failure. So, I provided the “correct” information that was needed to protect their engines. And after those engines were rebuilt following my advice, they were perfectly fine.
Anyone can come to my Blog for the FACTS about motor oil that cannot be found anywhere else.
The only data I have on Automotive automatic transmission fluid, is that Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, Multi-Vehicle Formula, performed very well regarding wear protection capability, in my Tech Article #55 on Gear Oils and Transmission Oils. So, that particular ATF is definitely worth considering.
Just to share here, I have no personal data on Valvoline Max life ATF Red bottle. but I sure can tell you it seems to work very very well. I changed out a E4OD , that I have had since new. and what a difference it made. everything I have put it in gets better not worse. Then you factor in that at Walmart you can get it for 17 dollars or so for a gallon, that makes it like the Quaker state in value. it says it is full synthetic. great stuff.
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Hi Douglas,
Rat just replying to your comment to me. I have a 392 Scatpack Shaker Challenger. The owners manual states that the oil must be changed every 6000 miles or 6 months and NEVER to exceed 6 months. It also requires 0w-40 motor oil and recommends oil meeting spec MS-12633, which conveniently is rare and only a few oils qualify. They recommend Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (which is MS-12633 certified) and it even has SRT on the bottle. Sounds like Dodge and Pennzoil have a little deal going one here…
As to whether they would know what I used if I had a warranty claim, they state in the owners manual, if I do my own maintenance, I would have to supply my receipts and prove I used the correct oil and filter. I know the oil and change requirement (6 months) is all bs, but right now I have to do the dance for the warranty. But, I am concerned about 0w-40 for this SRT 6.4L engine.
If I hadn’t found your blog, I would just be oblivious and content paying the high price for an average oil for the Challenger. But I am a perfectionist and am not satisfied unless I use the best I can get for the dollar.
thanks
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Hi again,
That is truly disgusting how they are holding you hostage over Warranty. And I can understand your desire to keep your Warranty intact, since Chrysler/Dodge has pretty much the worst quality and reliability record of any US Automaker. So, you are very likely to need your Warranty at some point. But, what they are doing is the kind of thing you would expect from Communists, and should NOT be allowed to stand. What has happened to the US?
It’s not like your car is a Super Performance car like a Hellcat, Hellcat Redeye, or a Demon. It is a down to earth normal Performance car, so they have absolutely no technical reason for doing that.
There is no question that they would be smacked down in a court of law for extortion, etc. I’m sure they never disclosed that severe Warranty restriction “BEFORE” you paid your money. They are only getting away with all that, because they know that 99% of their buyers would never take them to court. Let’s hope that 1% does.
They deserve to be put out of business for having such an outrageous business practice. At the very least, they should be boycotted and made to suffer greatly for what they are doing. Hearing about that does make one’s blood boil. I hope after reading about this, others will decide to spend their money with other brands.
You would think that a Company with such a poor quality record would make an extra effort to support and please their customers, to promote repeat and future sales. But not Chrysler/Dodge, all they do is screw their customers over, and give them the finger.
As for you personally, if you are not willing to dump that car, or sue them, then you are basically stuck with them. Fortunately, what they are forcing you to do, probably won’t hurt your car, as long as you are not super hard on it.
But, it does point out that they do not have much confidence in the quality of their engines, or they would not be forcing you to do what they apparently think is the only thing that can help it.
In the process, they have also shown that their people do NOT know what they are doing when it comes to motor oil. Because 0W40 is NOT the ideal viscosity for water cooled gasoline engines, for a whole host of reasons. See my Section 2 on Viscosity Selection for all the details on that topic.
The 0W40 Pennzoil Ultra I tested a few years ago, could only produce a disappointing 81,863 psi, which has it ranked a pitiful 143rd out of the 241 oils I’ve tested so far.
The IDEAL viscosity for most water cooled gasoline engines is 5W30. I use 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability full synthetic in all my own engines, including my 600 HP and 800 HP High Performance engines. 5W30 QSUD produces an extremely impressive 133,135 psi, which ranks it 6th out of 241 oils. That’s why I use it and recommend it to my Blog readers. And it can be purchased for a really affordable price at Walmart, which is icing on the cake.
This whole fiasco caused by Chrysler/Dodge is absolutely infuriating. I suggest you never buy anything from them again. There are much better Companies and much better similar vehicles readily available.
If I were you, here is a “work-around” plan I would use to give Chrysler/Dodge the finger right back, and would allow me to do what I know is best for my engine, while still keeping my Warranty intact. It would cost a little extra money, but would be more than worth it to me.
I’d buy the oil and filters they require, with the proper dates on the receipts. BUT, I’d never use them. Then I’d buy 5W30 QSUD along with an oil filter I wanted, and change the oil and filter myself once a year, using the good stuff instead of what they are trying to force buyers to use. But, of course you could not have that done at a Dodge Dealer. You’d have to do the oil change yourself, or take it to a different Shop.
That would be Win-Win, where you’d still have your Warranty, and at the same time, you’d be doing what is best for your engine. But, you would just be out a little more money, that you’d have to chalk-up to the cost of doing business with despicable Chrysler/Dodge.
Best of luck to you,
540 RAT
I have read several of your comments, and I find them very informative…many thanks.
In terms of heavy duty CK4/SN conventional diesel oil (10W30 and 15W40), Ford still has not approved any heavy duty diesel oil (HDDO) that does not contain a minimum of 1000 PM of phosphorus. However, many major oil blenders (Mobil, Chevron, and Valvoline) are only blending low phosphorus HDDOs (800 PPM). Also, all the major OEM diesel engine builders have approved low phosphorus HDDOs in high output diesel applications.
So, the question: are HDDOs blended with lower phosphorus levels providing equivalent or better protection than HDDOs that contain higher (1000 PPM) of phosphorus? This HDDO phosphorus debate remains a hot topic, especially due to Ford’s position. I would appreciate your input.
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Hi RG,
You came to the right place for the answer you need regarding what oil to use.
The only reason it is a hot topic, is because people who don’t know what they are talking about, including Ford, incorrectly believe that zinc and/or phosphorus levels indicate an oils wear protection capability.
If you’ve read much of my Blog, you know that my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil, has proven over, and over, and over again, that motor oil component quantities CANNOT predict an oil’s wear protection capability. That whole line of thinking is a total MYTH that is perpetuated by people who endlessly repeat WRONG information. Of course repeating wrong information a million times does NOT make it magically become true.
So, ignore Ford and all the idiots spewing garbage on Internet Forums. The only thing that truly matters, is the psi value that an oil can produce in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil.
And my testing shows that Amsoil Max-Duty Signature Series synthetic Diesel oils are the best performing, commonly available mainstream CK-4/SN HDDO’s on the market. They are available in 0W40, 5W40, and 15W40. Use one of those oils and you won’t have to care about what anyone else says.
But, if you are dead set on using a conventional Diesel oil, then lesser known 10W30 LE (Lubrication Engineers) Monolec Ultra Diesel oil, is also a CK-4 oil you could consider, that actually outperformed those Amsoil oils.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hello 540 RAT,
I have to say I am so pleased to have stumbled across this blog. It has confirmed so many of my suspicions and experiences and makes me feel so good about making a lot of people angry with my comments and oil choices.
I have a degree in Automotive Restoration and in that course learning about motor oils was like having my head carved open with a band saw. So much misinformation and old guy talk about ZDDP and flat tappet cams and how new oils are so bad old motors. I don’t have a engineering degree, but even I found it extremely hard to believe that the lab boys at the oil companies couldn’t find a way to improve oil at all in the 60 years since my instructors were born. I’m glad to know I wasn’t the crazy one.
I won’t even get into what we were taught when it comes to coolants.
I do have a question for you regarding my Lemons Racecar. Its a 1988 BMW 535is with the M30B34 engine.
I am currently running AMSOIL Dominator 15w-50 in it. Have you tested this grade of Dominator or its 5w-50 Signature Series sister?
Based on what your blog has taught me, I may be better off with the Signature Series oil. Just wondering if you had the figures for those two oils.
And knowing what I know now, I might try a 40 grade oil in this engine and see if I can maintain a reasonable pressure. But that is doubtful as the oiling in this engine is…. not great. Even with the Crankscraper and other oiling mods done.
I am now trying to find a high volume pump for it so I can run the 5w-30 in this application because we are endurance racing with no oil cooler and I know that oil is getting toasty in there even though our water temps were rock steady at 81C (finally thank god.)
Looking forward to your insight,
Gregory
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Hi Gregory,
Welcome to my Blog. I’m glad to see that you are very happy with it.
Yes, it is extremely bothersome how so many people who don’t know what they are talking about, keep spewing completely WRONG information about motor oil. They believed the bad information when they heard about it, then they keep repeating it. That’s how it is on every Automotive Forum out there. They put out nothing but garbage information. And more people read that, then they repeat it over and over. But of course, repeating bad information over and over a million times, does NOT make it magically become true. It is frightening how people just blindly accept all that bad information with absolutely no proof to back it up. It was all just made up from guessing. Unbelievable!!!
But, anyone can always come to my Blog for the TRUTH.
I have not tested those two specific Amsoil oils. I don’t test too many XW50 oils because they are simply way too thick for Automotive use, and have no business being used in water cooled gasoline engines. They are only appropriate for “air cooled” engines.
I suggest that you switch to Amsoil Signature Series oils which are very impressive, which you are already aware of. As you know, the thinner the oil, the better, down to 5W30, but no thinner than that. 5W30 is the ideal viscosity for most water cooled gasoline engines.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hello 540 RAT,
I have a 2006 Yamaha FJR1300 sport touring motorcycle. The shop manual recommends a 20w40 viscosity oil. I am currently using a 50/50 mix of the conventional Valvoline VR1 racing oils, 10w30 and 20w50. I think that would equal to a 15w40? Anyway, I like the way it shifts through all the gears. Smooth, with very minimal clicking. I picked theses 2 viscositys after having read your blog several times, based on the psi values. You recommend using a 5w30, such as QSUD. My concern would be, is it going to shift a little harder and could that eventually, damage the transmission? I also considered using Mobil 1 0w40 fs European Formula. I’m not worried about clutch slippage, as I’ve always thought that if the clutch is in great shape, using automotive oil shouldn’t make it slip. Thank you! – Joe S.
P.S. Quantum Blue has some oil products that it would be interesting to see how they compare in your oil testing. Check it out.
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Hi Joe,
There is no reason at all to be concerned that your bike might shift harder or possibly damage the transmission when using 5W30 QSUD. It is one of the VERY BEST performers in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. When it comes to Wear Protection Capability, it is FAR SUPERIOR to either of the VR1 Racing oils you are using.
And to further put your mind at ease, an Engineering colleague of mine, is using 5W30 QSUD in both his Yamaha Street bike, and in his Suzuki Sport bike. He says they both shift perfectly fine, and their clutches are also perfectly fine. With 5W30 QSUD, he is providing his engines and transmissions with top of the line protection, with no downside at all. So, 5W30 QSUD can do the same for you and your bike.
I have had a number of Blog readers also report excellent results when using 5W30 QSUD in their bikes.
All this is additional proof that the Motorcycle Industry requiring Owners to use only so-called “motorcycle oil”, is nothing but a scam to increase their profits. And JASO hides their “test results” of so-called motorcycle oil vs Automotive oil. They just provide a list of oils that they approve. Why are they deliberately hiding their test results if they are an honest organization? I share all my Engineering Test Data on motor oil for the whole world to see and compare.
As for Quantum Blue, they have the most bizarre business model I have ever heard of. You cannot just order the motor oil you want from them. You have to answer some questions, then “THEY TELL YOU” what oil they will send you. With them, the customer is NOT always right. That seems like a perfect way to quickly put yourself out of business. But, it apparently works for them, because they have been around for a number of years.
I have no interest in using their motor oil. But yes, it would be interesting to put their oil to the test to see if it is actually any good or not. From what I’ve seen on the Internet, some people love it, while some people hate it. Typical for the Internet where most information comes only from anecdotal evidence, which is simply word of mouth with no test data to support anything said.
In the end, it is almost certain that I could never get a single quart from them to test. And even if I did, it would not represent what others would get from them, because they blend each oil for individual people. So, each motor oil order is different than the next one.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat, Question on spark plugs. I currently am using Autolite spark plugs for my street Nova. Engine makes 375 horsepower. What spark plugs do you like? I have used NGK, AC also. Have you tested any brands against each other and quality components too? Please let me know Rat, thanks Rally.
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Hi again,
I have not made a back to back spark plug comparison. But, I decided to use Autolite spark plugs in my 800 HP, 540 cubic inch, Big Block Chevy engine.
As long as you are using an appropriate heat range and an appropriate gap, it is unlikely that you will notice much difference between different major spark plug brands in a 375 HP small block Chevy street engine.
Take care,
540 RAT
Thank you for the info. I agree what you said and it makes a ton of sense. Full competition is a different animal compared to street car version. Thanks Rat.
Hey I have good bit of your blog lots to read. I am a level machinery lube tech and certified through noria.
But my job consists of hydraulic oils not automotive situations. But I do mess with cars a lot.
In my situation I’m running an ls1 with a high volume oil pump and it’s a drift car. I currently have always ran Mobil 1 0w-40 FS. But have considered running a lower viscosity to promote drain back speed. If I was to try the 0w-20 amsoil sig series that rates realy good on your list. What would be a considered sufficient oil pressure hot. At idle and at let’s say 6000 rpm as of now I maintain around 50 at idle and well 80 or so at redline. Possibly a little higher. I Don’t watch it while drifting. Either way I will be switching to amsoil 5w-30 if switching to 0w-20 isn’t recommended.
Second. I read your part on compression ratio and understand it. But I’m somewhat confused on the fact that even though calculated dcr is lower the actual dcr while in operation let’s say at its highest volumetric efficiency point through the rpm range and peak torque area wouldn’t that still lower the knock threshold due to its actually having more air to compress and still create more heat than if the high dcr cam that was less efficient there making less power. I’m trying to say if the stock cam was making less power it’s because it had less air to work with. If the bigger cam makes more power it had more air to work with but that would to me think the knock threshold would be worse due to more heat and more combustion which is why the power was gained. So I guess I’m trying to ask knock threshold is much more complicated than just knowing dcr isn’t it. Obviously fuel etc is another variable but im talking about just when talking compression ratio affects to knock.
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Hi there,
You have more oil pressure than you need right now with the 0W40, if you are talking about normal “HOT” operating temperature oil pressure.
5W30 will serve you much better. 0W20 is too thin for any kind of performance car, especially if it is driven aggressively.
For a race car/performance car, the ideal “HOT” oil pressure is at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm. For example, at least 50 psi at 5,000 rpm.
Static compression ratio (SCR) and Dynamic compression ratio (DCR) are set in stone you might say, once an engine is assembled. And they will not change unless the engine build specs are changed at some point.
The lower the DCR, the less likely the engine will be to ping/knock. But, of course how aggressive the engine is built overall, how much ignition advance you are running, how much quench clearance you are running, how hot the engine is running, what air/fuel ratio you are running, what octane you are running, and how much boost pressure you are running, if any, are all additional factors as to how sensitive an engine will be pinging/knocking.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi 540, my son had 2006 ford taurus, i used, 10w40,10w30, 5w30 and
when he took it, he ran 5w20 oilzum, he had to replace the catalytic converter, he gave it to his cousin, it died with with 320,000 miles on it! Oilzum does have high zinc and phosphorus. Do you think that caused it
to die?
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Hi Bob,
Telling me “it died” gives me virtually nothing to go on. I guess you mean the engine and not just the replacement catalytic converter? You were not clear.
Did the engine seize up/lockup? Did it run out of oil? Did it simply wear out after 320,000 miles? Did it spew tons of smoke? Did it make bad mechanical noise just before stopping? Did something break inside the engine? Was the old engine all sludged-up inside, which could have contributed to the outcome? Does it need a valve job? What are the leakdown test or compression test numbers? Did the electrics fail? Does it have spark? Did you check for any computer message?
There are many reasons an engine can stop running. But, with 320,000 miles on it, it had a good long life, much like a 100 year old person. So, it is hard to complain about how long it lasted. How long did you expect it to last? I’d say you got your money’s worth out of it.
High zinc and high phosphorus motor oil should never be used with catalytic converters. That should be common knowledge.
I have never tested Oilzum motor oil, so I can’t say how good it may or may not be. But, it is not a brand I would choose, since its capability is unknown.
However, if the car was just an ordinary daily driver/commuter, it is unlikely that the Oilzum motor oil damaged the engine itself. Because for an ordinary daily driver/commuter, the motor oil chosen is not that critical, since the engine will not be highly stressed like in a High Performance or Racing vehicle. Therefore, a daily driver/commuter can typically get by well enough on low performing motor oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
Sorry about that, they never told me what happened, I use oilzum and valvoline regular oil, not synthetic, and switch back and forth between my cars. Thank You For Your Blog.
Hi, as an engineer I’d like to thank you for all your effort testing and communicating facts and helping us novices see behind all the old men’s tales and advertising deceptions with oil. I’m researching oils for use in a Yamaha 150 hp outboard motor in saltwater. I plan to use your ranking list, but have a question about one of your articles on diesel oils when it talks about zinc levels. You say that zinc doesn’t form a sludge or film, but is sacrificial and can run out. But you also say too much zinc can cause excessive wear. So in a marine application where the motor can sit unused for months at a time, then is used less than 100 hours a season between oil changes, should low zinc oil be fine? Zinc anodes on outboards are of course critical to prevent corrosion in saltwater, but I’m thinking that doesn’t apply as much to oils unless I had a leak somewhere.
With the relatively low hours between oil changes, and I over-thinking this and wasting money by getting a high-ranked synthetic? What would you recommend? From what I’ve read, a good synthetic may help a motor failure from causing more damage.
Also, I didn’t see you rank any of West Marine’s synthetic oil. Is there any way to tell what oil type it’s closest to? Marine companies and outboard makers all talk about special additives they put into their oil for marine use, but it sounds like that’s just a sales pitch and any of the high-ranked 5w-30 or 10w-30s may be better. Thanks for any advice!
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Hi there,
You are in luck, because I am in the process of testing a half a dozen Marine 4-Stroke engine motor oils, and then comparing them to some of the better Automotive motor oils.
This is for an upcoming Tech Article on Marine oils that I have “In-Work”. Since the test in not complete, I don’t have any wear protection capability psi values yet from the Marine oils.
But, I will share in advance of posting the new Tech Article, that another part of that test is complete, which is just as important to know when considering using Automotive motor oil in Marine applications. Let’s call it a sneak peak at the new Tech Article.
What I’m referring to is the topic of rust and corrosion inhibitors in Marine oils vs rust and corrosion inhibitors in Automotive oils. Those are the additives Marine oils brag about having. And in their advertising, they don’t come right out and say it, but the imply that only Marine oils contain those rust and corrosion additives. So, anyone reading their advertising, would get the idea that they would be required to use only Marine oils in Marine applications.
I sent a few of the Marine oil samples into a Motor oil Lab for component quantity testing, which I do not perform myself. I test personally test for wear protection capability psi values.
The results were that Marine oils do contain rust and corrosion inhibitors, just as they claim. However, when compared to some of the better Automotive oils, which no one else has ever done before, it turns out that the Automotive oils actually have more rust and corrosion inhibitors than Marine oils.
That is HUGE breaking news for boat owners. Because now they know that they are NOT limited to only using Marine oils in their 4-Stroke boat engines. They now know it is perfectly safe to use Automotive motor oils as well.
The only thing to determine now, is how well the Marine oils can provide wear protection compared to Automotive motor oils. But, because of my very busy schedule, it will probably be a few more months before I get a chance to perform that part of the testing. So, stay tuned for that when I post the completed Tech Article.
Another thing that was clear from the Marine component quantity Lab Test, was that the low zinc level in current Marine certified motor oils, is on par with the low zinc levels in current Automotive motor oils. So, zinc level is not even a consideration.
At this point, I can recommend using a couple of my top ranked Automotive motor oils in Marine applications. Those oils are 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series synthetic, and 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability synthetic.
Their 5W cold viscosity rating is also superior to the 10W30 viscosity Marine motor oils. Because the 5W motor oils will flow quicker through an engine on cold start-up which is highly desirable for boat engines that have been sitting for a long time.
Take care,
540 RAT
That’s awesome, thanks for getting samples analyzed to compare marine and automotive oils! I look forward to your wear protection results. One other question, I’ve read in some forums that since synthetics are more slippery, they don’t cling as well to surfaces and drain away more completely when a motor sits for extended periods. This results in a closer to dry condition for the first few seconds after startup. Have you done testing or do you have thoughts on the thicknesses of surface films that different oils leave and how long they persist? If an oil gave me less protection during normal running conditions, but stuck to the walls with a thicker layer and for longer, might that be a better choice to avoid wear in the first few seconds after a cold start?
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Hi again,
You need to understand that Internet Forums are chock full of incompetent and unqualified people who have no idea what they are talking about. They spew nothing but garbage, with absolutely nothing to back-up anything they say. Forums are truly the worst places to go for information. They are the reason I started my Blog in the first place. So that gear heads would have a place to go for the truth that is actually backed-up by hard Engineering Test Data.
The people on Forums are not Engineers, and they only go on theory, opinion, guessing, hearsay, speculation, assumption and emotion. But, they have no test data at all, so they have no proof of anything. They just make stuff up, and it gets repeated over and over by people who were gullible enough to believe what they say. Their bad information is WORSE than no information at all. You should do yourself a favor and stop going to Forums. But, you can always come to my Blog for the FACTS that cannot be found anywhere else.
Ignore what those Forum people have said about slipperiness. Because synthetic oils are NOT more slippery than conventional oils. The base oil has nothing to do with so-called slipperiness. Slipperiness is just a non-technical reference to the level of friction reducers in a motor oils proprietary additive package.
Those proprietary additive packages vary widely from product line to product line, and from brand to brand. But, those variations are not based on the oil being conventional or synthetic.
Synthetics are as a whole, superior motor oils, primarily because they typically can withstand higher oil temps, flow better at cold temps, and don’t require viscosity improvers, compared to conventional motor oils. And since they generate such large sales volume, and generate the most profits, they typically have the most money spent on their formulation development and production.
Slipperiness/friction reduction is not the same as the ability to cling to surfaces. The same way slipperiness/friction reduction is not the same as wear protection capability.
In general, viscosity has the biggest effect on drain off. For example, watery thin 0W16 motor oil now used in some Toyota’s will drain off more readily than much thicker 20W50 motor oil. Remember, oil starts draining off when an engine is shut down, when it is typically hot, so the oil will be at its thinnest.
Depending on the specific engine design, and its horizontal or vertical orientation, oil drain off can vary aside from the oils viscosity. Some engines can hold oil in place better than others, but a lot of oil is entrapped by most engines. And most oil filters have an anti-drain back valve feature, which keeps oil passages mostly full of oil. And inside an engine is not an open air condition, so general drying out is not typically a huge concern.
Several years ago I did a room temperature observational, though not specifically a data gathering, drain off test outside of an engine, for convenient inspection and monitoring, just to see what I could determine. I suspended two steel pipes above a drain pan, and poured 5W30 synthetic Royal Purple over one, and 5W30 synthetic Castrol over the other. Then I observed them over roughly 6 months or so. At the end of that time, neither oil had completely drained off and disappeared. Their oil films had become very thin, but they were still visible with a slight shine on the steel pipes. This observational test was not an inside an engine test, and no hard data was gathered. But, it did show that synthetic oils do not just run off and disappear like those Forums wrongly claim. And this open air test would be considered a worst case test, compared to a closed up engine.
At the end of the day, you really have two reasonable choices, if you are concerned about oiling in marine engines that sit a long time. Use a low cold viscosity rated, quick cold flowing synthetic oil such as 5W30. Or you could remove the spark plugs and spin a marine engine over with the starter for say 10 seconds or so, to build some oil pressure and start the oil flowing “before” actually starting the engine.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi 540, love this blog, i use 5w30 oilzum with a pour point of – 50*C, does that mean the tested valvoline premium 5w30 at number 88 is better?
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Hi Bob,
I’m glad to see you love my Blog.
The most important thing a motor oil does, is prevent engine wear. Everything else it does, comes after that, and is in background support of preventing wear.
So, determining which oil is better comes down to the psi value a motor oil can produce during my Engineering Torture Test, which determines its wear protection capability. The higher the psi value, the better the oil is at preventing wear. That is how we determine which oil is better than another. And you can easily see that in my Wear Protection Ranking List.
Pour point is not a critical motor oil property unless you live where it is say -25*F (-32*C) or colder. The vast majority of people don’t live where it is that cold or colder. So, in general, pour point is not a determining factor for which motor oil is best.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hey 540 Rat, I just wanted to tell you that I have a 2019 Dodge Challenger 1320 with less than 10,000 miles on it that requires the 0w-40 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. After reviewing your testing, I knew I had to get that stuff out of there.
I went with 5W-30 AMSOIL Signature Series oil. After I changed it and cranked the engine up, I noticed that the ticking that was in the valvetrain is now gone. Even when the engine is up to normal operating temperature, the tick is gone. The AMSOIL is really good stuff, and I’m an AMSOIL dealer, so that helps me out a bunch on the cost of it. And yes, my receipts reflect that I use the Pennzoil 0w-40 Ultra Platinum.
I also wanted to tell you I put the Quaker State 5w-30 Ultimate Durability API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 synthetic oil in my 2006 Chevy Colorado with 320,000 miles on it. I swapped it over from MOBIL 1 5w-30 API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 synthetic. The engine runs noticeably quieter with the Quaker State in it at normal operating temperature.
I’m also running the Quaker State 5w-30 Ultimate Durability API SP Dexos 1 Gen 2 in my wife’s Yukon, plus two other race cars I have. One is a 7000 rpm bracket car with a 434 ci small block, and the other is a 9000 rpm SB2.2 heads up small tire car. I can’t wait to tear into those things come freshening up time to check for wear and cleanliness.
I know it looks bad that I run the Quaker State over the AMSOIL in most of my equipment since I’m an AMSOIL dealer, but price and the fact that the Quaker State has almost the wear protection of the AMSOIL are the determining factors in that.
Anyways, keep your blog coming because you’re the only one out here putting out the truth, as determined by my real world experiences up above.
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Hi Patrick,
I’m glad to see that your engines are doing so well with two of the highest ranked motor oils from my Wear Protection Ranking List. And that is excellent real world proof that High Performance Challengers do not need 0W40 motor oil. Thanks for sharing your experience.
It is nice to get some additional feedback on how well things are working out with motor oils that have performed extremely well in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. I’ve had the same excellent results with 5W30 QSUD.
Now, I have a question for you. Could you please double check your 5W30 QSUD bottles to confirm if they say API SP, or if they say API SN Plus. I have not been able to find the API SP version in stores or online yet. And Quaker State was supposed to have changed the name from “Ultimate Durability” to simply “Full Synthetic”, on the new API SP version. So, I’m wondering if they came to their senses and decided to stay with the awesome “Ultimate Durability” name after all.
And one last question, where did you find that motor oil?
Thanks in advance for getting back to me.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hello 540 RAT,
I saw your question to Patrick asking about whether the new Quaker State 5W-30 Ultimate Durability oil has changed its name and API rating. I noticed on the Walmart website that they are now selling the new version which has removed the “Ultimate Durability” and just says “Full Synthetic”. Also the API designation of this new oil is “SP”. I see pictures of front and back of the 5 quart jug that shows these changes.
Doug
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Hi Doug,
Thanks for the update. I’ll see if I can get it locally this weekend. If not, l’ll order it.
Take care,
540 RAT
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Here’s a follow-up to my response immediately above.
I checked out Walmart in-person as well as online, and the new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic”, API SP version, was only available in the 5 quart jug. But, I only need/use a single quart bottle for my Engineering Test. So, the wait continues.
540 RAT
Yessir, that’s right. I could only find 5w-30 Quaker State Full Synthetic in the five quart jugs also.
I bought two jugs of it a couple of months ago, and it was API SN Plus. About a month later, I bought five more jugs of it, and it was API SP.
If you give me a mailing address, I’ll ship a five quart jug of the 5w-30 Quaker State Synthetic API SP for testing.
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Hi Patrick,
Thanks for the offer, I appreciate that. But, I finally found the SP version yesterday at the local Walmart in the 5 quart jugs.
I only need/use a 1 quart bottle for testing. And I originally wanted to see how the SP version performs in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil, before I start stocking up on any. So, I was going to hold off until I could get a single quart.
But, after giving it some more thought, I decided to go ahead and get the 5 quart jug after all. And if it does not test as well as it did before, I would not use it in my High Performance vehicles, but I could still use it in my daily driver vehicles.
Now the only problem is finding enough time in my very busy schedule to test all the oils I now have on hand waiting to be tested. I have 6 Marine oils and now 5 API SP oils. All lined up to provide test data for two new upcoming Tech Aricles.
Thanks again,
540 RAT
No sir, thank you for all of your testing, not only of the oil, but of the filters, and the great tech information on H-beams versus I-beams, the rod bolts, plus the cam beak-in nonsense. Lots and lots of great information in this blog!
Hello and thank you for all the great info you supply Sir.
Would you use a 5W-30 in place of the 10W-50 Motorex that KTM recommends in a 510cc water cooled thumper with a shared gearbox?
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Hi Dion,
I’m glad to see you consider that my Blog supplies great info.
In general, water cooled engines have no business using overly thick XW50 motor oil. Oil that thick should generally be used only in air cooled engines that cannot control their oil temperatures very well, especially when run hard in hot weather. So, the oil will become much thinner as it gets hotter and hotter. And starting out with a thick oil, prevents it from becoming dangerously thin when extremely hot.
I researched the specific details of your engine on the Internet, which tries to jump around a lot. So, sometimes it gives you information for something you did NOT ask for, without being clear that it changed on you.
But, as far as I could determine, it appears that your engine’s crankshaft uses plain bearings on the big end with high pressure oiling, which is excellent. So, in that case 5W30 would be fine if the engine still made acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with the thinner 5W30.
However, your crankshaft’s rod bearing is apparently a roller bearing instead of a plain bearing. And those type of bearings are typically low pressure oiled.
If all that is correct, you have what you might call a hybrid bearing engine. Traditionally, most engines have used either one type of bearing or the other. But, a combination of the two is somewhat of an odd-ball mixture.
So, if your engine engine is truly a hybrid bearing engine, then it is NOT the best candidate for switching to the thinner 5W30. Because I don’t have any data on using thinner 5W30 oil in roller bearing applications, since most roller bearing engines are air cooled engines that need thicker oil.
It might well be that your engine would be just fine with 5W30, but you would be stepping outside of my database and outside of your Factory’s testing/development.
If it were my own bike, I would probably try the 5W30, in the name of my own additional data gathering. But, I’m not prepared to recommend doing that to one of my Blog readers, since there is some question about doing it.
If you want to play it safe, the best plan is to probably stay with the factory’s viscosity recommendation.
Take care,
540 RAT
I would firstly like to thank you for all the info on this blog. I have switched all the oil is use in my vehicles and my atv/dirt bikes because of it. Along with that, I have noticed less fine metal shavings in my atv oil filters after switching to 0W40 Mobil 1 oil and have had no problems with my clutches slipping.
Since there is very little information on 2 stroke premix oil, I would like to know if you’d be willing to test some to find their wear properties? I would also be curious to know how mixing with gas would affect the wear properties? (32:1 is a pretty common ratio)
I can find the viscosity, viscosity index, flash point, and what group of oil they are made from but no info on the wear protection. Since your blog shows that viscosity doesn’t have a direct affect on wear protection, it worries me that im not using the best oil I could be in my engines. Especially considered the extreme applications of a 2 stroke performance engine and the oil being diluted with gas, it would be very helpful to know good oils to use to increase top and bottom end life.
The oils that I would be interesting are Klotz Super Techniplate, Klotz R50, Maxima 927, Maxima Super M, Yamalube 2R, Kawaski Performance 2-Stroke Racing Oil, Motorex Cross Power Synthetic 2T 2-Stroke, Motul 800 Ester Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil, Golden Spectro Pre-Mix, Red Line 2-Stroke Racing Oil, and Bel-Ray MC-1 Synthetic 2-Stroke Oil. These seem to be some of the most popular.
I realize that this would be for a very niche market, but it would be extremely helpful to me and my friends. I would also be more then willing to pass the information around all the 2 stroke facebook and forum pages im part of.
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Hi Cole,
I’m glad to see that you’ve made good use of, and have had great success with my Blog’s information.
Your question about testing 2-stroke pre-mix has come up before. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable and safe test to perform that would realistically predict how two stroke pre-mix oil will perform in a running engine. That is why you cannot find any test data on that topic.
The Engineering Test Torture Test I perform on 4-stroke motor oil, is a friction test under load, to determine an oil’s load carrying capability failure point. Doing that test with a 32:1 fuel to oil ratio would be asking for a disastrous fire.
On top of that, there is way too much variation in any pre-mix ratio’s capability, due to an extremely wide variation in the different fuels that could be mixed with the oil, all of which could affect the results.
If you are interested in 2-stroke engine wear reduction and longevity, look no further than the pre-mix ratio itself. There used to be a huge debate about 20:1 vs 32:1 pre-mix ratio’s. But, the facts have never changed. 20:1 has clearly shown to provide the BEST real world wear protection capability, compared to the money saving 32:1, no matter what the 32:1 crowd may claim.
And I can tell you from my own first hand experience, that using 20:1 does NOT create a spark plug fouling condition as long as you are mindful that a 2-stroke is NOT a 4-stroke. Meaning that you don’t let a 2-stroke idle much, and that you don’t just putt around slow and easy like Granny would if she were riding it. If that is a rider’s style, then they should be riding a 4-stroke.
2-strokes are awesome High Performance engines, and should be operated as such.
Bottom Line: Those who know what they are doing, and want to provide their engines with the best possible wear protection, use the ideal 20:1 pre-mix ratio in their 2-strokes. Those who use the less than ideal 32:1, which is just barely enough oil, can expect increased engine wear.
In addition to being the ideal pre-mix ratio, 20:1 is also easy and convenient to mix, because it does not require any measuring. Here’s why: 4 quarts = 1 gallon. So, 5 gallons = 20 quarts. That means if your pour a 1 quart bottle of 2-stroke oil into an empty 5 gallon jug, then fill it with premium fuel, you have your 20:1 pre-mix ratio without ever having measured anything. With both the oil and fuel in the jug, you’ll end up with 5 1/4 gallons in the jug. Most 5 gallon jugs can accommodate a bit over 5 gallons. So, however it works out with your jug, it is close enough. That’s as easy as it gets.
And yes, High Performance 2-stroke engines should always use premium fuel. They are subject to pinging/detonation with insufficient fuel octane, the same as a High Performance 4-stroke engine. And of course pinging/detonation can and will destroy your engine.
I’ve seen many 2-stroke engines with a catastrophic hole burned through the top of its piston from pinging/detonation, particularly back in the day when the carburetor was jetted with an air:fuel ratio was too lean. And today in most areas, the fuel is the worst it’s ever been. And even with today’s fuel injection, it is in your best interest to use premium fuel.
Wrap your head around this. If you have a 4-stroke dirt bike with a typical roller bearing engine, it is lubricated by 100% motor oil that is not intentionally diluted with anything.
But, if you have a 2-stroke dirt bike running 20:1 pre-mix, with 1 quart of oil diluted with 20 quarts (5 gallons) of fuel, you are lubricating your roller bearing engine’s moving components with only about 5% oil. That’s a little breathtaking. And truly amazing how well that works.
If you are running 32:1, then you are lubricating your engine with ONLY 3% oil. And 3% oil is a staggering 40% LESS oil than 5%. Think about that the next time someone tries to convince you that 32:1 pre-mix is best.
Take care,
540 RAT
540 Rat,
First let me begin by thanking you for your dedication and contributions to the field of mechanical engineering.
I just have a few questions regarding motor oil.
My ’03 awd 4.6 Mountaineer with 107,000 is currently running qsud 5w20. Somehow I seem to average around 18 to 19 mpg with mixed highway and city driving up here in the Sierra at 6300 ft. Not much noise at start up except sometimes when it drops into the teens in the winter mornings. Very little oil consumption between changes at 3 to 5k. Wondering if a change to 5w30 is recommended. I asked my Ford tech and he told me not to, so that I would avoid potentially damaging the engine.
In your q and a section from a few yeas ago you said that you stuck with 5w20 in your vehicles that called for it, but in the more recent posts you mention that 5w30 is a much better oil for protection and performance, and that you have switched your vehicles from 5w20 to 5w30.
My other two vehicles are motorcycles: an ’09 husky te510 with 6,200 mi, which calls for 10w60; and a 2016 Kawasaki ninja 1000 with over 20,000 mi, calling for 10w40.
Would it be safe to switch to 10w50 for both bikes, or should I stick with the recommended viscosities I have always used? I know you say to avoid motorcycle oil but I am very hard on the bikes, they have higher mileage and still shift like butter and are extremely fast. I change the oil in the dirt bike every 16hrs or about 250 miles.
I change the oil in my street bike about once a year or every 3k, whichever comes first. I want the oil that can protect and perform best, especially since both bikes are wet clutch, high performance machines. I do not intend to sell either of these bikes and honestly want to keep them for as long as I can.
I only use full synthetic: Motul 7100 10w60 in the Husky, and castrol power 1 10w40 in the Kawi. I am strongly considering using motul 7100 in both bikes. Due to its full ester technology, the success I have had with it in my 500, and the competitive price point. My dirt bike is fully tuned and has no cat, while the street bike is mostly stock with a titanium dual akrapovic muffler.
Thanks for all the great research and professional advice.
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Hi there,
Unfortunately, your Ford Tech is like countless others who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to motor oil. Because 5W20 is only called for to maybe, ever so slightly, improve gas mileage. All that is/was in support of Auto Makers’ C. A. F. E. numbers, but it does not benefit the engine in any way. And almost no one can ever measure any gas mileage improvement between 5W20 and 5W30. That whole thing is/was a Corporate Marketing decision, NOT an Engineering decision.
The way you can potentially avoid engine damage is to switch to 5W30 QSUD or other highly ranked oils which provide better engine protection. 5W30 is the optimum viscosity for most water cooled Automotive engines.
And yes, I switched all of my own 5W20 vehicles over to 5W30 a few years ago, after the superiority of 5W30 became clear. And I have recommended that switch to my Blog readers ever since.
With your Husky being a roller bearing engine, according to what I could find out about it from an online search, it is probably best to stay with a thicker oil, even though it is water cooled. And most good quality XW50 or XW60 oils should work well enough in it. Though XW50 is a much better choice. Because XW60 is simply too thick.
And yes, so-called Motorcycle motor oils are typically very poor performers, no matter what technology they claim. So, I do NOT recommend using them. Since you are very hard on your bikes, you should definitely be using far superior High Performance Automotive motor oils in your bikes.
As for your Ninja, I do NOT recommend using poor performing and insanely thick 10W60 motorcycle oil in that High Performance plain bearing engine. I suggest you read my Section 2 on Viscosity Selection for the numerous reasons why thinner oil is far superior.
So, I recommend using far superior High Performance Automotive oils such as 5W30 QSUD, or 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil in your Ninja. I’ve had a lot of good feedback from bike rider Blog readers and from elsewhere, who are very happy with these 5W30 oils in their bikes.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat
A while back I had wrote to you about my boat engine. It has a Volvo drive coupled to a GM 5.0 block, 2005 vintage. I am ordering Amsoil sig series 5W30 which I believe you recommended for this lake water cooled small block V8. I may have left out 1 important piece of info. The thermostat in this engine is rated at 165F. So, sucking in cold lake water, my temp gauge reads a constant 170F.
I now know (from your blog) that the 5W oil will pump faster at cold start temps, but, will I see any drop in oil pressure using the 5W30 vs the 10W40 they recommend at operating temp? In a car, i wouldn’t give it a second thought, but we have extended running times at 3500-4500 rpm’s. Ambient air temps are 100-115 degrees at the Colorado river.
Again, from info I have learned from you, I cannot understand why Volvo and Merc recommend 10W40 in their GM engine packages. Even with Amsoil, if you want to pay a little more for bona-fied marine oil, their offerings is in either 10W-30 or 10W40.
Just wanted to ask before I hit the “confirm order” button.
Thanks again!
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Hi again Steve,
With 115*F ambient air temperature in Lake Havasu, the water temp is typically around 85*F to 90*F or so. That is not cold for lake water temperatures in general, though it would still be relatively cold to your engine.
A 165*F thermostat is ideal for High Performance engines. And running with 170*F coolant temperature is also ideal. The engine doesn’t know or care if it is in a car or in a boat.
Oil sump temperature in an engine being run like yours, is typically around 50*F or so hotter than the coolant temperature. That would put your oil sump temp at around 220*F or so, which is excellent. That is on par with all the boat engine oil temp data I have. The ideal oil temp range is 215*F to 250*F. So, your setup is working just fine.
Different viscosities will typically show a difference in oil pressure. So, yes you will probably see some reduction in oil pressure when switching from 10W40 to 5W30. But, depending on your engine’s bearing clearances and oiling system’s capability, it will likely still be fine. But of course, you should verify it’s hot normal operating temperature oil pressure.
The old rule of thumb recommended “HOT” normal operating temperature oil pressure for High Performance and Racing engines, is “at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm”. For example, you would ideally like to see at least 45 psi when you are running at 4,500 rpm. But, that recommendation is not engraved in stone, it is a general guideline. So, even if you are a little off, but in that approximate area, you are fine.
Most people automatically tend to think that big Companies are All-Knowing and always correct. But, that is simply NOT true. At the end of the day, they are run by people. And people are not all-knowing and not always correct. They are often off-track and often make wrong decisions.
So, the fact that Volvo and Merc recommend thicker than ideal 10W40 rather than the ideal 5W30, proves they don’t understand motor oil as well as most people would expect. And one company may well have copied the other. Therefore, it is quite possible that the whole thing came down to one person with the authority to make that recommendation.
And it is very common for people who don’t know what they are talking about, to “falsely” believe that thicker oil provides better wear protection. But, Engineering Tests have proven over and over again, that the oil’s proprietary factory additive package, which includes the extreme pressure anti-wear components, is what actually determine its wear protection capability, NOT viscosity. So, completely ignore Volvo and GM, because they cannot be trusted when it comes to motor oil.
It is completely insane that so-called Marine oils start out with 10WX viscosities, and go thicker from there. Since boats sit a lot of the time, they can greatly benefit from the quicker flow of 5W30 motor oil at cold start-up.
And along those lines, I have a Marine Oil Tech Article in-work, where I compare 6 different Marine oils with some of the top ranked Automotive oils, which has never been done before. I have not yet tested the wear protection capability of those Marine oils. But, I have compared Auto vs Marine oil component quantities, to see how they compare regarding rust and corrosion inhibitors, which Marine oils always brag about.
And I can reveal now, in advance of posting the new Tech Article, that the Automotive oils actually have MORE rust and corrosion prevention capability than Marine oils. That means automotive oils will protect you boat engine from rust and corrosion BETTER than so-called boat oil.
So to conclude, I suggest you do hit the “confirm order” button on the 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil. It is one of the very best motor oils on the market. And if cost is a factor, 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability is a very close second choice with much better pricing, especially at Walmart.
Take care,
540 RAT
Your information is incredible, so much so I would gladding pay you for your time and energy. I can’t put it down however it is long so l might have missed this. I have a 20 year on rebuild 428 cobra replica maybe 450 hp and an oil cooler, I no you don’t like mixing any additives, it holds 6 quarts oil, how would you feel about using 5 qt 5w30 Quaker state ULD and 1 qt of 5w30 valvoline max life high mileage for the seal enhancer? Thank you for your time and dedication. Gene
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Hi Gene,
Thanks for the kind words. No payment is necessary.
You are correct, I’m not a fan of mixing different motor oils. Maybe it would be acceptable if you really had your heart set on mixing two different viscosities of the same exact motor oil product line, such as two different viscosities of QSUD.
But, mixing two different brands of motor oil creates a witches brew motor oil that will mess up the carefully balanced, proprietary factory additive package that each oil started with. It would not be the end of the world if you did that, but I don’t recommend it.
Plus, with only one quart of High Mileage motor oil, you wouldn’t have enough seal swell chemical to be of much value. If you really need High Mileage motor oil, you should use 6 quarts of High Mileage motor oil.
And just so you know, synthetic motor oils are more prone to leakage than conventional motor oils, especially in older engines. So, synthetic High Mileage oils are prone to leakage, while at the same time trying to reduce leakage. So, they are fighting themselves right from the start, and are often not all that effective at reducing oil leakage. They are really more of a Marketing gimmick than anything else. But, you could give it a try and see how it works out for you.
Conventional High Mileage oils are much better at reducing oil leakage. But, those oils did not really produce high enough psi values in my Engineering Torture Test on motor, for use in a High Performance engines.
So, if you try the 5W30 Valvoline Max Life High Mileage oil and it doesn’t reduce oil leakage much, then I’d just use 6 quarts of the excellent performing 5W30 QSUD, and keep an eye on the oil level. I suspect that you don’t put that many miles on the car anyway. Therefore, that shouldn’t really much of a problem.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat,
Since just about everyone who reads your blog is an enthusiast, all of us own antiques, classics, hot rods or sports cars which sit in garages for a couple of weeks or more between usages. Regarding the protective oil film, if it doesn’t flow, run or drip, then drying would be the only thing that would cause it to deteriorate. Do you have any info on how long the film might last on internal engine parts? Currently, I disconnect the coil wire at the distributor cap and crank the starter for 20 to 25 seconds before starting my car. If I don’t do that, it will tap quite loudly for about 5 seconds, and I know that significant wear is happening. But if I knew of a particular oil that provided a film that lasted longer, it might influence my buying decision. I’ll probably continue to get oil flowing using the lower rpm of the starter regardless of which oil I use but it would be interesting to know. I am also an engineer and appreciate your analysis and information. Thanks for all the hard work!
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Hi Larry,
That 5 seconds of tapping noise is what is often heard when hydraulic lifters have bled out their oil after sitting for a significant period of time. This is typical in older traditional engines when they are using synthetic motor oil. But, that noise is from temporary extra loose resulting valve lash, which would not actually be causing worrisome wear, even it is very troubling to hear.
I don’t have any hard data on how long motor oil lasts on internal engine parts. And that kind of data isn’t easy to gather. Because an enclosed engine doesn’t conveniently lend itself to obtaining that kind of data. And some internal components have oil trapped in place more than other components do. So, it would be difficult to come up with meaningful data overall that could somehow be measured and compared. That is why you won’t find any data on that topic.
What you are doing before actually starting the engine, is a good idea for engines that have been sitting for significant period of time. And to make the most of your procedure, a synthetic 5WXX motor oil would provide the best cold flow to get oil to all engine components the quickest.
And it is best to start out with highly ranked motor oils from my Wear Protection Ranking List, which have the highest film strength to begin with. The oils I recommend most are 5W30 Amsoil Signature Series oil, and 5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
Good Afternoon,
First I want to thank you for the impressive work and testing you have done, I definitely had my share of different oils trial and erros before i stumbled upom your blog there is a gentleman from Poland on youtube by PiotrTester who has done some testing on different oils but nothing in comparsion to yours. So ive been using quaker state ultimate durability 5w30 apn plus for over a year now, but I just found out none of the walmarts have it anymore instead there is a quaker state full synthetic same dexos gen 2 but no apn plus , when I called quaker state they said that ultimate durability has been replaced by Full Synthetic, Please let us know if this is the same oil as Im afraid the oil formulation has changed. Thanks for all you dedication!
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Hi there,
Yes, Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” API SN Plus, has technically been replaced by the new Quaker State “Full Synthetic” API SP, which is a different formulation.
But, depending on where you are located, there may be plenty of the older version still on Auto Parts Store shelves. The Walmart near me only has the new version, while a Pep Boys near me has a truck load of only the old version.
I will be testing the new “Full Synthetic” API SP version very soon, so that we will know how it compares to the older “Ultimate Durability” that was such an excellent version. I’m on the edge of my seat like everyone else to find out if the new version is as good as the old version.
I already have the new version to test. And I almost tested it last weekend, but I was just too busy to get to it. Perhaps I can test it this coming weekend. TBD…
Take care,
540 RAT
We can’t thank you enough for all you do… but we are like you waiting for the big test,, I sure hope they didn’t mess it up, I am sitting on 4 to 5 bottles of the old stuff, and even if the new stuff is as good or better, the old stuff is still plenty good. Thanks very much.
Good evening, I had a question about what happened to the old title holder as #1 the Quaker state with oil extreme additive. I used it once before going with Trybodine and had Blackstone test both Trybodine preformed better. And I’ve noticed the ones u have listed using oil extreme have hurt performance. Was the initial data wrong as it seems to hurt not help.
Love your stuff I’m OCD about my oil. I’m 56 and have been since I was young. Bobistheoilguy.com is where I learned the most. But your amazing! Also the last message about scat pack and Dodge I have same but a Charger I’ve used 5/30 based on your info👍 I do use SRT oil filter. Also do have any reconditions for a good tranny fluid (changed the factory fill to Maxlife and Lubegaurd platnuim used their stuff for years with excellent results) jury is out on the Maxlife my tranny seems to run hot if I push it over 200 and the Maxlife has 203 top temp breakdown. and diff fluid. Thinking of using Trybodine in rear diff it coats gears really well in videos I’ve seen.
Keep it up. 🙏
John
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Hi John,
My Engineering Test Data has never been wrong. It comes from the Science of Physics and Chemistry involved in the testing. No one can argue with Science. And Engineering Test Data drives the world. So, my Test Data on motor oil is the real deal, which cannot be disputed. Therefore, the data in my Blog is the best and most useful information on that topic you will find anywhere. And the reason I started my Blog in the first place, was so that gear heads would have some place to go for the TRUTH about motor oil. Because Internet Forums are full of nothing but worthless garbage.
So, I’m not exactly sure what you are talking/asking about. When I post a motor oil’s psi data, that psi data never changes for that particular oil. The only way a number might “appear” to change, is when I test a newer version of a particular oil. But, that is a “different” oil from the first one, which I always make perfectly clear. There is nothing confusing about that. Over time, most motor oils will be updated with a revised formulation. So, they must be retested, if the newer version’s performance is to be added to my Wear Protection Ranking List.
And as additional motor oils are tested and added to my Wear Protection Ranking List, the ranking positions of various oils will change, depending on how all the psi values stack-up. The highest psi value is rated number 1, and the lowest psi value is rated last. That is all very straight forward.
If you reread my Blog carefully, you will see that the Oil Extreme additive typically helped lower performing oils, but typically hurt higher performing oils. All oils I tested with the Oil Extreme additive are still on my list, with the same psi value they were posted with. Nothing has changed except ranking positions which change every time another motor oil is added to the list.
And those tests were performed because of requests I had received. They are intended for informational purposes only. And I have made it very clear in multiple places in my Blog, that I do NOT recommend using any aftermarket additives at all. Because they ruin an oil’s carefully balanced factory additive package, making the oil WORSE OVERALL than it was to begin with, no matter what it may or may not do for wear protection capability. If you select a high ranking motor oil from my Wear Protection Ranking List, it will NOT need any help.
Just so you are clear, Blackstone Lab does NOT test motor oil “performance”. They test motor oil “component quantities”. Those are two completely different things. And component quantities do NOT predict performance.
I am the one who performs motor oil Engineering Performance Testing, so that we can find out how various motor oils truly perform.
And just so you know, Bobistheoilguy Forum is chock full of unqualified people who have no idea what they are talking about. They spew nothing but WRONG information. That is one of the absolute WORST places to go if you want to learn correct information about motor oil.
The people on that Forum believe and repeat over and over again, nothing but myths, old wive’s tales, opinions, theories, and guesses. They have no data to back-up anything they say. Their “bad” information has caused a number of engine failures that drove people to my Blog in search of help, because following what that Forum said was a complete failure. So, I provided the “correct” information that was needed to protect their engines. And after those engines were rebuilt following my advice, they were perfectly fine.
Anyone can come to my Blog for the FACTS about motor oil that cannot be found anywhere else.
The only data I have on Automotive automatic transmission fluid, is that Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, Multi-Vehicle Formula, performed very well regarding wear protection capability, in my Tech Article #55 on Gear Oils and Transmission Oils. So, that particular ATF is definitely worth considering.
Take care,
540 RAT
Just to share here, I have no personal data on Valvoline Max life ATF Red bottle. but I sure can tell you it seems to work very very well. I changed out a E4OD , that I have had since new. and what a difference it made. everything I have put it in gets better not worse. Then you factor in that at Walmart you can get it for 17 dollars or so for a gallon, that makes it like the Quaker state in value. it says it is full synthetic. great stuff.
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Hi Douglas,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Take care,
540 RAT