Rat, sorry but my misspelling of Tribology led you astray. I did use ALS Tribology on last UOA. You had earlier referred them to me. I too have stopped using Blackstone. I found they only estimate fuel dilution (FD) from flash point, so a lot of their FD numbers are <.5 They admitted that when they have sent the sample out for FD the numbers were 2% higher than their estimate. I also found they have no accreditation. But getting fuel dilution and flashpoint is difficult. ALS Tribology does not do it for gasoline, only diesel, due to fire hazard and insurance. They have said that if the viscosity is in range then FD should not be a problem. But FD is transitory.
I have looked for alternate labs but have not been happy with either their no answers to my inquiries or insufficient replies.
I don't want to spend money on a UOA each time I do an oil change. That should not be a necessary expense.
I will do another UOA next oil change to verify viscosity. I am also looking into getting a Bluetooth OBDII connector to a phone app to monitor oil and trans temp. Apparently Hyundai has those PIDs available.
Peter
.
.
============
.
.
Hi again Peter,
Yes, a “Used Oil Analysis” is generally not worth the time, trouble, or expense. I have sent in dozens and dozens of new, and a handful of used, oil samples for Lab testing. And at the end of the day, they don’t really provide enough important information to bother with. So, I have almost entirely stopped sending in oil samples now.
BOTTOM LINE: Most people needlessly place WAY TOO MUCH value on motor oil Lab tests. The reality is, if people make use of my Engineering Test Data PSI values, which cannot be found anywhere else, to select a high performing oil, and then change it at reasonable intervals, they won’t need to be concerned about much else regarding motor oil.
Hi thanks for your great work i highly appreciate it. I have a Bmw 320 2005 with the m54 engine. This engine construction burns a lot of oil and it burns aprox 1liter per 1500km. The problem is mainly due to poorly constructed piston rings. I have been reading your blog and i have found that i should use a conventional oil to minimize the oil burning. I cannot find the conventional Pennzoil high mileage oil here in sweden so i am keen on using the Valvoline high mileage 10-40w but i hesitate due to the cold winters here with temperatures down to -20 celsius or could this oil be used ? So would you advise using Valvoline high mileage 5-30w synthetic oil ?
Maybe it doesnt matter what kind of oil i use due to the problem with the rings ?
Please advise an oil option that would help me out
Kind Rergards Jon Holmberg
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi Jon,
In your case, I suggest you use a “conventional” 5W30 High Mieage oil, even if that means ordering it from the Internet, rather than getting it at a local store.
Because this vehicle is new to me I like to understand what the engine oil is doing. An earlier UOA from Blackstone picked up elevated aluminum so I did a later UOA just before the oil change with Tribology which showed normal AL.
But I now show out of range oil viscosity and want to understand why. There are a lot of bad reviews about these GDI engines and their particular faults, so I’m trying to see if those reviews are fact based or not – at least on my engine.
Do you think overheated oil can push the viscosity higher in oil? If it was overheated how could I tell?
Peter
.
.
==========
.
.
Hi again Peter,
First, you should be absolutely confident that your Lab Test result of the oil thickening, is correct. Unfortunately, you can’t always trust Lab Test results to be 100% perfect every single time. So, an additional test of the same oil, by a different Lab would help you feel confident that you actually do have a concern.
A standard Lab Test will not show you if a motor oil has in fact been over heated. For an oil to be over heated to the point that it shows thickening on a Lab Test, it would have to have exceeded its onset of thermal breakdown point significantly, for an extended period of time.
If your car is factory stock, and is just driven normally in moderate temperatures, it would be highly unlikely that the oil has been over heated in such a manner.
In order to overheat the oil in such a manner, the car would need to be driven very aggressively A LOT. Such as a lot of racing, a lot of climbing long grades, pulling a trailer a lot, driving in very hot climates a lot, or just driving very aggressively overall, most of the time. A highly modified engine could also contribute to that. You get the idea, out of the ordinary operating conditions. If your car was involved in any of that a lot, you would also expect to see high coolant temps, which you did not mention.
The only sure way to know what temps your oil is seeing, is to install a quality oil temp gauge, such as is offered by Autometer.
Just read your Blog – Wow, outstanding work. Thank you.
I’m looking for the best quality engine oil that is also offered by my favored online parts supplier as they offer a lifetime free replacement – YES, even on engine oil! The only oil in the top 10 of your list that they supply is Pentosin 5W30 Pento Super Performance III -Pentosin 8078206 . which ranks 6th or 7th in your list(oils without additives) which is perfect – job done.
HOWEVER the suppliers site “does not recommend” this oil for my car rather they recommend Pentosin 5W30 Pento High Performance Engine Oil) – Pentosin 8043206
I can tell from your extensive list that just because one specific oil form a brand is great does not make another, no matter how similar, also great. Knowing this it would also seem that the same companies other top tier similar spec offerings should be at least very good and in fact probably more than good enough for my daily driver (+ a track day here and there for fun).
QUESTION: Have you ever tested the Pentosin 5W30 Pento High Performance? If not can express as educated an opinion on this vs Super Performance III?
ALSO: Would you have any reservations using Super Performance III in this car? I imagine the website is just citing recommendations from “sources” and the SPIII is unusually high grade for this car and the HP is “all you need” sort of thing.
Your thoughts???
There is only a $2-3.00 difference in price per 5 litre bottle.
2008 Volvo V50 2.4i (non-turbo) 150k trouble free miles on Castrol full syn – cant recall exact variety but gold bottle. Looking for at least 300k miles out of this car. Starting to cost money(axles, wheel bearings etc) but I am keeping up as needed with top quality parts and too cheap to buy a new one.
Much appreciate your analysis and thoughts
FWS
.
.
=============
.
.
Hi Frank,
Every oil I have tested is on my Wear Protection Ranking List. I’m not in the business of “guessing” how an oil “might” perform. The whole point of my Blog is to share Test Data FACTS. So, I would not speculate as to how the HP oil “might” perform.
I would just use the SPIII oil, then worry about something other than motor oil.
Hi Rat… I’m a big fan of your blog… also an engineer…
I have modern Gen III Hemi engine that has been built into a supercharged race motor. Thru talking with my engine builder and direct race experience we have determined that a 40 weight motor oil is what is optimal for my engine.
I have currently been using Castrol GTX 10w-40 and am in the process of switching to Amsoil Signature 0w-40.
While you have tested oils from both of these manufacturers, you understandably, haven’t tested these weights of oil as most passenger cars today use 20 or 30 weight motor oils.
If I were to ask you to test these two oils, what would I need to do? Would you like me to send you a small sample of each? An entire bottle? etc?
Very interested to hear your response-
rich s.
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi Rich,
You would need to send me a brand new unopened 1 quart bottle of each oil for testing.
Most people who ask about sending me oil, are not really serious and never follow through. If you are one of the few who really are serious, let me know. And I can provide the shipping instructions.
I grab the chance of the provided postage infos, so I will manage to send you from Greece a pair of 1L bottles of Liqui Moly Molygen 5w30, cause there are a lot of people trusting it here in E.U. It’s a new, different formula from the Liqui Moly oil you have tested, so I think it’d be interesting to “load” it.
Personally, I feel comfortable with M1 ESP 5w30, so it’s only a matter of academic interest.
I will provide you with the UPS tracking number as soon as I get it…
Emmanuil
.
.
=========
.
.
Hi again Emmanuil,
I only need 1 bottle. The other person you read about is sending two different types of oil.
I am building a 440 Mopar stroker to 493 cubes. A well known head builder on the East coast who sold me a Comp Solid Roller cam for this combo with Factory heads(I am building a F.A.S.T. factory appearing stock tire) motor. He is sold on Joe Gibbs Driven 10w-40 for my combo. He said he was aware of your rated oils and said he doesn’t trust off the shelf oils for race motors. My combo will look stock with a 6 pack set up and HV Melling oil pump. Since I found your list over a year ago, I have only gone by it in choosing an oil. I am thinking 0w-40 in Mobil 1, or 10w-30 in Amzoil Signature series. Maybe just a break in with the Mobil 1 0w-40. Or do you suggest I go 5w-30 in a well performing product? Thanks again!
Jeff
.
.
=============
.
.
Hi again Jeff,
I would use a highly ranked 5W30, as long as the engine is able to generate acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with that viscosity.
Ignore what that engine builder thinks about motor oil. There is absolutely NOTHING magical about so-called race oil. All that matters is the PSI value an oil can produce in my Engineering motor oil torture test. The higher the PSI value, the better the Wear Protection.
After running Aeroshell 15w-50 in my Harley Road Glide for 6 months I am happy to inform you that this oil seems to perform great.
I have an aftermarket oil cooler and a Magnafilter installed and I never see over 230 degrees of oil temp in my pan.
In my opinion it must be one of the best choices for oil/air cooled bikes.
Your test on this oil proved that it actually performed better at higher temperatures.
38. 15W50 Aeroshell W, Piston Aircraft engine oil, semi-synthetic = 104,332 psi
zinc = 2 ppm
phos = 1286 ppm
moly = < 1 ppm
See more Lab Test data at the beginning of “Section 4 – Motor Oil component quantity Lab Test results”.
This oil was tested at the end of 2017.
The psi value shown just above, is from the normal test temperature of 230*F, which put this oil near the upper end of the OUTSTANDING wear protection category. However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. And this is the first oil I have tested that actually had an “increase” in capability at 275*F = 106,300 psi, which put it in the INCREDIBLE Wear Protection Category at this much higher temperature. This is also the “first” aircraft engine oil I have tested. And this viscosity would generally be used in “air cooled” aircraft engines.
I also tested this oil for the onset of thermal breakdown, which was 285*F.
Before I put a note up on the Harley Davidson Road Glide forum I wanted to ask you if you agree that this oil is a good choice for the Harley bikes?
Thanx.
Paul Sandum
.
.
============
.
.
Hi Paul,
It’s a good thing that you asked me first. That oil is specifically formulated for aircraft engines that generally run for a significant amount of time. As part of that, its formulated with a TBN value that is WAY TOO LOW for any street operated vehicle. Therefore, I do not recommend using that oil in an earth-bound vehicle.
I have noticed that the 5w-20 QSUD in my Hyundai GDI 2.4 gets discolored sooner than 5w-30 QSUD in my non GDI 3L truck emgine.
What do you know of soot in these engines and it’s affect on the oil?
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi again,
Soot is associated with Diesel engines, NOT with a gasoline engine such as yours. Unfortunately, your engine has a reputation for poor quality and failures. So, I suspect your engine is not sound, and has excessive blow-by, which will dirty the oil much quicker.
“So, I suspect your engine is not sound, and has excessive blow-by, which will dirty the oil much quicker.”
Not according to my compression test where all cylinders got about 200 psi. As well the valve cover tube after the PCV to intake is not producing any vapor and the tube is clean. Engine only has 12K miles as it’s a 2017.
There is much discussion and testing on GDI producing soot but at this stage I don’t think the amount is harmful, but was interested in what experience you might have.
Peter
.
.
==========
.
.
If your oil is truly getting darker sooner than it should, obviously something is causing it. And the most likely way for something to get into the oil to dirty it, is from combustion blow-by.
A compression test is better than nothing, but a leak down test is far superior. So, you might want to perform that test as well, to see what additional information you can come up with.
The claimed benefits of GDI are better performance and better emissions. But, its big problem of carbon build up on intake valves has been ignored. I don’t think GDI should have been brought to market with such a severe short coming. So, I would never buy a GDI vehicle as long as I have a choice.
You are stuck with that engine for as long as you choose to keep that vehicle. So, you will probably end up having to live with your situation.
Rat, sorry but my misspelling of Tribology led you astray. I did use ALS Tribology on last UOA. You had earlier referred them to me. I too have stopped using Blackstone. I found they only estimate fuel dilution (FD) from flash point, so a lot of their FD numbers are <.5 They admitted that when they have sent the sample out for FD the numbers were 2% higher than their estimate. I also found they have no accreditation. But getting fuel dilution and flashpoint is difficult. ALS Tribology does not do it for gasoline, only diesel, due to fire hazard and insurance. They have said that if the viscosity is in range then FD should not be a problem. But FD is transitory.
I have looked for alternate labs but have not been happy with either their no answers to my inquiries or insufficient replies.
I don't want to spend money on a UOA each time I do an oil change. That should not be a necessary expense.
I will do another UOA next oil change to verify viscosity. I am also looking into getting a Bluetooth OBDII connector to a phone app to monitor oil and trans temp. Apparently Hyundai has those PIDs available.
Peter
.
.
============
.
.
Hi again Peter,
Yes, a “Used Oil Analysis” is generally not worth the time, trouble, or expense. I have sent in dozens and dozens of new, and a handful of used, oil samples for Lab testing. And at the end of the day, they don’t really provide enough important information to bother with. So, I have almost entirely stopped sending in oil samples now.
BOTTOM LINE: Most people needlessly place WAY TOO MUCH value on motor oil Lab tests. The reality is, if people make use of my Engineering Test Data PSI values, which cannot be found anywhere else, to select a high performing oil, and then change it at reasonable intervals, they won’t need to be concerned about much else regarding motor oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
Dear Sir
Hi thanks for your great work i highly appreciate it. I have a Bmw 320 2005 with the m54 engine. This engine construction burns a lot of oil and it burns aprox 1liter per 1500km. The problem is mainly due to poorly constructed piston rings. I have been reading your blog and i have found that i should use a conventional oil to minimize the oil burning. I cannot find the conventional Pennzoil high mileage oil here in sweden so i am keen on using the Valvoline high mileage 10-40w but i hesitate due to the cold winters here with temperatures down to -20 celsius or could this oil be used ? So would you advise using Valvoline high mileage 5-30w synthetic oil ?
Maybe it doesnt matter what kind of oil i use due to the problem with the rings ?
Please advise an oil option that would help me out
Kind Rergards Jon Holmberg
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi Jon,
In your case, I suggest you use a “conventional” 5W30 High Mieage oil, even if that means ordering it from the Internet, rather than getting it at a local store.
Take care,
540 RAT
Because this vehicle is new to me I like to understand what the engine oil is doing. An earlier UOA from Blackstone picked up elevated aluminum so I did a later UOA just before the oil change with Tribology which showed normal AL.
But I now show out of range oil viscosity and want to understand why. There are a lot of bad reviews about these GDI engines and their particular faults, so I’m trying to see if those reviews are fact based or not – at least on my engine.
Do you think overheated oil can push the viscosity higher in oil? If it was overheated how could I tell?
Peter
.
.
==========
.
.
Hi again Peter,
First, you should be absolutely confident that your Lab Test result of the oil thickening, is correct. Unfortunately, you can’t always trust Lab Test results to be 100% perfect every single time. So, an additional test of the same oil, by a different Lab would help you feel confident that you actually do have a concern.
A standard Lab Test will not show you if a motor oil has in fact been over heated. For an oil to be over heated to the point that it shows thickening on a Lab Test, it would have to have exceeded its onset of thermal breakdown point significantly, for an extended period of time.
If your car is factory stock, and is just driven normally in moderate temperatures, it would be highly unlikely that the oil has been over heated in such a manner.
In order to overheat the oil in such a manner, the car would need to be driven very aggressively A LOT. Such as a lot of racing, a lot of climbing long grades, pulling a trailer a lot, driving in very hot climates a lot, or just driving very aggressively overall, most of the time. A highly modified engine could also contribute to that. You get the idea, out of the ordinary operating conditions. If your car was involved in any of that a lot, you would also expect to see high coolant temps, which you did not mention.
The only sure way to know what temps your oil is seeing, is to install a quality oil temp gauge, such as is offered by Autometer.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat
Just read your Blog – Wow, outstanding work. Thank you.
I’m looking for the best quality engine oil that is also offered by my favored online parts supplier as they offer a lifetime free replacement – YES, even on engine oil! The only oil in the top 10 of your list that they supply is Pentosin 5W30 Pento Super Performance III -Pentosin 8078206 . which ranks 6th or 7th in your list(oils without additives) which is perfect – job done.
HOWEVER the suppliers site “does not recommend” this oil for my car rather they recommend Pentosin 5W30 Pento High Performance Engine Oil) – Pentosin 8043206
I can tell from your extensive list that just because one specific oil form a brand is great does not make another, no matter how similar, also great. Knowing this it would also seem that the same companies other top tier similar spec offerings should be at least very good and in fact probably more than good enough for my daily driver (+ a track day here and there for fun).
QUESTION: Have you ever tested the Pentosin 5W30 Pento High Performance? If not can express as educated an opinion on this vs Super Performance III?
ALSO: Would you have any reservations using Super Performance III in this car? I imagine the website is just citing recommendations from “sources” and the SPIII is unusually high grade for this car and the HP is “all you need” sort of thing.
Your thoughts???
There is only a $2-3.00 difference in price per 5 litre bottle.
2008 Volvo V50 2.4i (non-turbo) 150k trouble free miles on Castrol full syn – cant recall exact variety but gold bottle. Looking for at least 300k miles out of this car. Starting to cost money(axles, wheel bearings etc) but I am keeping up as needed with top quality parts and too cheap to buy a new one.
Much appreciate your analysis and thoughts
FWS
.
.
=============
.
.
Hi Frank,
Every oil I have tested is on my Wear Protection Ranking List. I’m not in the business of “guessing” how an oil “might” perform. The whole point of my Blog is to share Test Data FACTS. So, I would not speculate as to how the HP oil “might” perform.
I would just use the SPIII oil, then worry about something other than motor oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
I would also like to ask if you have any comparative data or thoughts on LiquiMoly products.
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi again Frank,
Yes, I have tested one of their oils, which was not impressive. You will find it on my Wear Protection Ranking List.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat… I’m a big fan of your blog… also an engineer…
I have modern Gen III Hemi engine that has been built into a supercharged race motor. Thru talking with my engine builder and direct race experience we have determined that a 40 weight motor oil is what is optimal for my engine.
I have currently been using Castrol GTX 10w-40 and am in the process of switching to Amsoil Signature 0w-40.
While you have tested oils from both of these manufacturers, you understandably, haven’t tested these weights of oil as most passenger cars today use 20 or 30 weight motor oils.
If I were to ask you to test these two oils, what would I need to do? Would you like me to send you a small sample of each? An entire bottle? etc?
Very interested to hear your response-
rich s.
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi Rich,
You would need to send me a brand new unopened 1 quart bottle of each oil for testing.
Most people who ask about sending me oil, are not really serious and never follow through. If you are one of the few who really are serious, let me know. And I can provide the shipping instructions.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi Rat-
Yes, Please send shipping instructions…. very interested in doing this…
my e-mail address is rscotto1120 at gmail dot com.
thanks-
rich
.
.
=======================
.
.
Hi again Rich,
I only communicate with my Blog readers here on this Q&A Section. I will post the Shipping Instructions here for two days, then remove them.
The Shipping Instructions were posted here for two days, then removed.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi RAT,
I grab the chance of the provided postage infos, so I will manage to send you from Greece a pair of 1L bottles of Liqui Moly Molygen 5w30, cause there are a lot of people trusting it here in E.U. It’s a new, different formula from the Liqui Moly oil you have tested, so I think it’d be interesting to “load” it.
Personally, I feel comfortable with M1 ESP 5w30, so it’s only a matter of academic interest.
I will provide you with the UPS tracking number as soon as I get it…
Emmanuil
.
.
=========
.
.
Hi again Emmanuil,
I only need 1 bottle. The other person you read about is sending two different types of oil.
Take care,
540 RAT
Hi 540 RAT,
I am building a 440 Mopar stroker to 493 cubes. A well known head builder on the East coast who sold me a Comp Solid Roller cam for this combo with Factory heads(I am building a F.A.S.T. factory appearing stock tire) motor. He is sold on Joe Gibbs Driven 10w-40 for my combo. He said he was aware of your rated oils and said he doesn’t trust off the shelf oils for race motors. My combo will look stock with a 6 pack set up and HV Melling oil pump. Since I found your list over a year ago, I have only gone by it in choosing an oil. I am thinking 0w-40 in Mobil 1, or 10w-30 in Amzoil Signature series. Maybe just a break in with the Mobil 1 0w-40. Or do you suggest I go 5w-30 in a well performing product? Thanks again!
Jeff
.
.
=============
.
.
Hi again Jeff,
I would use a highly ranked 5W30, as long as the engine is able to generate acceptable “HOT” oil pressure with that viscosity.
Ignore what that engine builder thinks about motor oil. There is absolutely NOTHING magical about so-called race oil. All that matters is the PSI value an oil can produce in my Engineering motor oil torture test. The higher the PSI value, the better the Wear Protection.
Take care,
540 RAT
After running Aeroshell 15w-50 in my Harley Road Glide for 6 months I am happy to inform you that this oil seems to perform great.
I have an aftermarket oil cooler and a Magnafilter installed and I never see over 230 degrees of oil temp in my pan.
In my opinion it must be one of the best choices for oil/air cooled bikes.
Your test on this oil proved that it actually performed better at higher temperatures.
38. 15W50 Aeroshell W, Piston Aircraft engine oil, semi-synthetic = 104,332 psi
zinc = 2 ppm
phos = 1286 ppm
moly = < 1 ppm
See more Lab Test data at the beginning of “Section 4 – Motor Oil component quantity Lab Test results”.
This oil was tested at the end of 2017.
The psi value shown just above, is from the normal test temperature of 230*F, which put this oil near the upper end of the OUTSTANDING wear protection category. However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. And this is the first oil I have tested that actually had an “increase” in capability at 275*F = 106,300 psi, which put it in the INCREDIBLE Wear Protection Category at this much higher temperature. This is also the “first” aircraft engine oil I have tested. And this viscosity would generally be used in “air cooled” aircraft engines.
I also tested this oil for the onset of thermal breakdown, which was 285*F.
Before I put a note up on the Harley Davidson Road Glide forum I wanted to ask you if you agree that this oil is a good choice for the Harley bikes?
Thanx.
Paul Sandum
.
.
============
.
.
Hi Paul,
It’s a good thing that you asked me first. That oil is specifically formulated for aircraft engines that generally run for a significant amount of time. As part of that, its formulated with a TBN value that is WAY TOO LOW for any street operated vehicle. Therefore, I do not recommend using that oil in an earth-bound vehicle.
Take care,
540 RAT
Soot in GDI Engine?
I have noticed that the 5w-20 QSUD in my Hyundai GDI 2.4 gets discolored sooner than 5w-30 QSUD in my non GDI 3L truck emgine.
What do you know of soot in these engines and it’s affect on the oil?
.
.
===========
.
.
Hi again,
Soot is associated with Diesel engines, NOT with a gasoline engine such as yours. Unfortunately, your engine has a reputation for poor quality and failures. So, I suspect your engine is not sound, and has excessive blow-by, which will dirty the oil much quicker.
Take care,
540 RAT
“So, I suspect your engine is not sound, and has excessive blow-by, which will dirty the oil much quicker.”
Not according to my compression test where all cylinders got about 200 psi. As well the valve cover tube after the PCV to intake is not producing any vapor and the tube is clean. Engine only has 12K miles as it’s a 2017.
There is much discussion and testing on GDI producing soot but at this stage I don’t think the amount is harmful, but was interested in what experience you might have.
Peter
.
.
==========
.
.
If your oil is truly getting darker sooner than it should, obviously something is causing it. And the most likely way for something to get into the oil to dirty it, is from combustion blow-by.
A compression test is better than nothing, but a leak down test is far superior. So, you might want to perform that test as well, to see what additional information you can come up with.
The claimed benefits of GDI are better performance and better emissions. But, its big problem of carbon build up on intake valves has been ignored. I don’t think GDI should have been brought to market with such a severe short coming. So, I would never buy a GDI vehicle as long as I have a choice.
You are stuck with that engine for as long as you choose to keep that vehicle. So, you will probably end up having to live with your situation.
Take care,
540 RAT